Showing posts with label family. Show all posts
Showing posts with label family. Show all posts

Wednesday, September 28, 2022

Blog Chapter 4 Summary and Bibliography

Looking at my blog posts, I realized that they naturally came in different periods or phases. The 2019 posts were one, then there were those from 2020 - 2021, and then those from 2021 - 2022. In spring of 2022, I decided to deliberately create a phase, which I called a "blog chapter", this being the fourth one.

I think the previous three were things that arose spontaneously and in response to my own needs, while this fourth one was premeditated and a bit artificial. Somewhat like doing a year of school.

This chapter has been about the "exilic-familial", among other things. I explored themes of nation, culture, family, childhood, and education. These topics connect to a vision that I had before officially starting the blog chapter (or, I was hypomanic and wrote something), about "cultural altruism", a path for those trying to do good through culture or in cultural areas, articulating with art, religion, humanities, politics, and effective altruism and especially its "Long Reflection" idea. When we try to govern the world, we are, and should be, informed by nation, culture, family, childhood, and education.

Two specific cultures were themes, Jewish (especially as I best know it, from the Old Testament), and Indonesian. Jewish culture is a family of holiness, and also has a history of enduring exile. I saw in Judaism (at least in the Old Testament itself) a kind of honesty coming out of having lost, and the idea of not winning and that being a route to peace and holiness. I saw in it families broken and reconciling.

Indonesian culture is (to me) about syncretism and unity-in-diversity, as well as a connection to Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Indonesia is a nation that attempts to pull together diverse groups, and which has a history of mixing religions. (I didn't really explore these themes in depth, but only discussed Indonesia a little.)

The war in Ukraine and the polarization of US politics are in the background.

This chapter, written in about seven months if you include the cultural altruism writings drafted in March and April, surprisingly (to me) is in the same order of magnitude of number of words as the three preceding chapters combined, about 20% less. I keep feeling like I do the math wrong when I count (maybe somehow I do), but I think it's right. I didn't feel like I was working any harder when I wrote. Perhaps I was under the influence of hypomania? I clearly had it in late March, but maybe it continued in a non-obvious, attenuated form throughout the seven months.

I've felt different ways over the last few weeks. Sometimes depleted, sometimes not. I've thought about quitting or drastically cutting back on writing, and also going on full bore. I think what has been particularly hard has been working to finish this after I had already moved on from being into this blog chapter. I could use much of myself as usual to work, but not all of me.

--

These are the books reviewed in this blog chapter. Links are to my reviews:

Holy Resilience, by David M. Carr, hardback (1st ed.?) ISBN 978-0-300-20456-8

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, by Robert Louis Stevenson, Bantam Classic paperback, ISBN 0-553-21277-X

In the Shadow of the Banyan, by Vaddey Ratner, 1st hardback ed., ISBN 978-1-4516-5770-8

Between Man and Man, by Martin Buber, tr. Ronald Gregor Smith, Macmillan Paperbacks Edition, 1965, no ISBN

Creative Destruction, by Tyler Cowen, paperback, ISBN 0-691-11783-7

The Meaning of Marriage, by Timothy Keller (with Kathy Keller), hardback (1st ed.?), ISBN 978-0-525-95247-3

Along the Way, ed. Ron Bruner and Dana Kennamer Pemberton, paperback (1st ed.?), ISBN 978-0-891-12460-3

On the Genealogy of Morality, by Friedrich Nietzsche, tr. Carol Diethe, Cambridge edition, paperback (Revised Student ed.), ISBN 978-0-521-69163-5

Teaching Children to Care, by Ruth Sidney Charney, paperback (1st ed.?), ISBN 0-9618636-1-7

Thursday, September 22, 2022

Book Review: Along the Way, ed. Ron Bruner and Dana Kennamer Pemberton

See also the preview for this review.

Instead of writing a full review of Along the Way, here are my notes.

--

Along the Way notes

The authors of Along the Way are:
Ch. 1 -- Ron Bruner and Dana Pemberton
Ch. 2 -- Ron Bruner
Ch. 3 -- Steven Bonner
Ch. 4 -- Ron Bruner
Ch. 5 -- Samjung Kang-Hamilton
Ch. 6 -- Samjung Kang-Hamilton
Ch. 7 -- Holly Catterton Allen
Ch. 8 -- Nathan Pickard
Ch. 9 -- Jeff W. Childers
Ch. 10 -- Jeff W. Childers
Ch. 11 -- Ryan Maloney
Ch. 12 -- Dana Kennamer Pemberton
Ch. 13 -- Suzetta Nutt
Ch. 14 -- Shannon Rains
Ch. 15 -- Dana Kennamer Pemberton

--

Finished chapter 1.

--

Finished chapter 2.

--

Chapter two talks about the history of the Stone-Campbell Movement's "theology of children". Infant baptism is rejected as unbiblical, while an equally unbiblical "age of accountability" is added to explain how it is that unbaptized children who die do not go to hell (having not yet attained a certain age at which they are morally developed enough to be accountable). Those views are familiar to me from having grown up in a Church of Christ. One which is unfamiliar is a logical corrolary (although maybe not a necessary one) that [unbaptized] children are not part of the kingdom of God. Also, there are newer views which seem somewhat consonant with what I grew up with, that children are on a faith journey.

Baptism is important for salvation in the Churches of Christ -- it's essential. It may be essential for salvation in MSLN as well, or it may not be. (Because it may be, it is important.) It makes sense for it to be seen as a weighty thing connected to salvation, and thus a significant rite of passage for young people (or anyone). However, [in MSLN], children who die unbaptized are not (from that) destined to lose their salvation. So it makes sense to see them as being in relationship with God, in a sense in good standing with God (thus on a faith journey, and part of the kingdom of God).

That chapter didn't discuss child evangelism. Maybe the book will discuss it later. In case it does not, I will discuss it now.

How should adults evangelize children, given MSLN? I'm not completely sure, but my instinct at this point is to say that adults should practice "urgent libertarian holiness", desiring that their children be saved (come into a relationship with God that persists to the point that they are 100% holy) but not force them to see that in any way. Don't do anything manipulative or dishonest in teaching your children about God. Better to simply be as saved as you want them to be, and in that way anti-tempt them. But the spirit with which you relate to them (and anyone or else) should be urgent, and desirous of their salvation.

However, one aspect of salvation in MSLN is coming to love doing good, which spills over into good behavior. Should an MSLN-believing parent refrain from enforcing good behavior, since it might coerce the love of good, which is part of salvation? Unfortunately, a certain amount of coercion or coercion-adjacent behavior may be needed, not for the child's salvation, but because good behavior is necessary for children to succeed socially, or for the child to be responsible enough to take care of him- or herself, or for some other significant practical reason. These are things that enable children to make the most of their life on earth.

Children need to learn to love doing what is right for its own sake, not because it's socially rewarded or pragmatic. This is part of loving things the way God does. But that lesson has to be learned later in life, I guess.

[Maybe to some extent it can be learned in childhood, even if you can't always intentionally set up the circumstances where they have effective freedom of choice between better and worse, or can't guide children to make exactly the right choice. There's a reality that is best learned in wild places, and children can enter into some of the wild places.]

If you want to raise your children in the faith in a libertarian way, perhaps you are safe if you simply speak the truth, intending only to speak it, and not to enforce it or make it be heard or understood. Children can be exposed to much more truth in this way than if they are forced to engage with it or make a decision based on it. For instance, reading the Bible aloud to children [with no expectation of a response or even that the children necessarily listen to any given part] exposes them to much more truth than is age-appropriate or necessary for them -- but some of them may benefit from parts a parent couldn't have predicted were beneficial (the child might be ready for them sooner than the parent realizes). Children have a way of filtering out things they are not ready to hear. Pushing children to hear things might work, but be controlling or too forceful.

I will say that I was raised by a basically libertarian parenting with respect to faith. So it is an obvious thing for me to reach for as I try to think of things to recommend (and, I am biased toward it). However, I can say that I see the benefits of it. Libertarian, or libertarian-leaning parenting (in my experience) can have its downsides, for instance in preparing a person to deal with responsiblity or the social world. But, in my experience, it encourages a person to develop their own faith and their own relationship with God. I suppose those upsides and downsides are what I would expect from a disestablished thing.

--

I can hear a pro-child evangelism person saying something like: It's important that we evangelize children in some other way than neutrally presenting the truth and being saved ourselves, because, even if it is the case that we persuade them to follow God for fake reasons, or out of some kind of social obligation, or for pragmatic reasons, or in some way other than that they love God for who he is -- though all this may sound less than really good, and require some kind of correction later in life, what's important is to keep them out of even worse things: temporal (drugs, gangs, premarital sex, dropping out of school) or spiritual (other religions, worldviews, simply not having a part of their brain that naturally responds to the word "God").

I can see some merit to those objections. Maybe it is the case, as with other things in life, that the lesser of two evils is better than the greater, and if those are your only two options, you should choose the lesser. But, I think that if it is at all possible to address the spiritual dangers of not evangelizing children by evangelizing them with simply presenting the truth and being saved ourselves (or perhaps something else that goes with that approach), that should be the way to go. It should be something that child evangelists think about, as a possible alternative to more manipulative or fake approaches.

I talk about anti-temptation. Is anti-temptation simply the temptation to do what is right or to love God? Like with Buber (who claims something like that we don't relate to God the same way we relate to an idol, and so we can't simply replace the object of relating or worship with God, without changing the character of it), so anti-temptation is of a different character than temptation. Temptation is about addicting and forcing, and also about taking power over someone else's mind. Temptation is about knowing someone's nature and predicting them. So anti-temptation is not about exerting psychological power on people, and not about figuring them out, knowing their psychological vulnerabilities better than they do.

Perhaps it is the case that a somewhat "tempting" child evangelism is more effective in the short run, creating a first approximation of love of God which is necessarily immature, because children are immature. Then, when children grow older, that first approximation can be corrected.

Does it get corrected? Or do people go through life with a basically immature relationship to God? How do you explain to a 30 year old that their relationship to God and life in general is immature? What about a 50 year old? There comes an age at which we feel like we are mature, and just like children, come to be unable to comprehend certain sentences, such as "you are a functioning, perhaps even psychologically healthy and well-adjusted adult, but you are deeply spiritually immature".

Probably it does get corrected in some cases, and not in others.

Some people believe in child immaturity more than is warranted. I first attended a public school that mostly had low-income students, up to grade 5. The school was a charter school with some history, and it had things like Orff-Schulwerk (or Orff-Schulwerk inspired) music education and "families" (a weekly class with the same teacher over the whole elementary school education, with students of different grade levels in each "families" class). So it had some affinity with Waldorf education or things like that. There was (perhaps therefore) a kind of generosity and respect from the teachers.

Low-income students have to go on to deal with life in a real way. Teachers who see children with generosity and respect treat (treated) those children as though they were significant and to be expected to be mature. They couldn't afford to be immature.

I remember some of the students in a grade higher than mine were more mature than me, and I still somehow expect them to be more mature than me, and always so. Even maybe those 5th graders [at that age] that I knew when I was in 4th grade [they are somehow still more mature than me now] -- there are dimensions to maturity that some children possess but which adults sometimes do not.

But then I graduated and started attending an elementary school that went to the 6th grade, part of a private Christian school system that I attended until 12th grade. At my previous school, it was like we were seen as having our roots in the future as full adults. But at my new school, it was like we were seen as having our roots in some innocent, cute past -- when we were five years old, perhaps. This may have been exacerbated by the teacher I had, who perhaps was inclined to look down on us and infantilize us, in a way that other teachers at the school may not have been. I (and a number of my classmates) did not like her, and going to 7th grade, with many teachers, was a breath of fresh air.

But though none of the other teachers were as intensely anti-maturity as her, it seemed like even the more "real" or serious ones either could not see the possibility of a Christian school that carried on the maturity of my public school, or could but were stuck in the environment they were in, which was more powerful than them.

Certainly class had something to do with it, comparing expectations one would have for low-income people versus middle-class as most of the private school students were. I don't want to say that secular schooling is really better for people's maturity than Christian schooling, although I do think my particular secular elementary school was better than my Christian education. (I think secular schooling could fail to really communicate the need for maturity to their students, even though the teachers would well be aware of that need -- a problem of too much despair, perhaps, rather than of too little facing "reality" / dark things.) But I think that perhaps an emphasis on "you are a child of God" makes you think "I need to be a child; I need to be a child my whole life; I need to be childlike my whole life; it is better for me to have the sins of childhood my whole life than the sins of adulthood" and to have a sense that someone will take care of you -- God, but you don't really believe in God for yourself necessarily, so if you don't, then the church, or some other human or group of humans. Then, church leadership becomes unhappy that their "children" don't become "adults" like them and help them work. So the church leadership overworks and takes too much control. (A pattern I have seen, which again, is from my particular experience, but which might apply elsewhere.)

[Teaching Children to Care, I would say, would have fit fairly well in my public elementary school -- perhaps some of the teachers were aware of it, even.]

--

Perhaps adulthood is overrated, and we should honor childhood? I think there are two different paths to honoring childhood. One is the way of my public school, which honored how it could be that 10-year-olds could have their roots in the future, in capability, responsibility and respect and respectworthiness. Childhood can be mature, can be 100% childhood and 100% mature, and calling out the maturity of childhood honors childhood.

Another way to honor childhood is to say that the things in it which are precious, cute, immature, antithetical to capable, responsible adulthood, are to be valued, are in fact worthy of respect, though, when adults practice them, they usually are not fully respectful. We honor children by saying that it is their radical difference from adulthood that is to be honored, not their similarities with adults, the maturity that they can share with (some) adults.

--

One understandable fear that might justify protecting immaturity is to protect children from abusive "taskmasters". It's not good to hate children in their immaturity. Better to respect them for having, in fact, their roots in their future, though their behaviors happen to have something to do with being 5 or 10 years old.

--

Ch. 3

The author says (p. 41) --Since our children are children of God, we should so weave them into the life of the church that they cannot ever recall life without Christ.--

This sounds somewhat dangerous to me. It's like being in water your whole life so you never deeply understand wetness. In fact, this sounds somewhat like my upbringing. I had a shallow faith, that was only redeemed by seriously confronting atheism. That shallow faith (including a shallow love and trust of God) was not sufficient to save me. Imagining a future where other obvious life challenges are done away with through civilizational development, where can we find that deepening work? Maybe by not steeping our children in our faith, so that they can see it in an alien way, for themselves.

Another danger is that "Christ" is a word that often means "Jesus as we understand him". To be raised in Christianity that is so totalizing, it may be that some never seriously question "Jesus as we understand him". But to have had a non-Christian life enables us to see "Jesus as we understand him" and not-"Jesus as we understand him". This helps us to look for "Jesus as he is". We will end up with a new "Jesus as we understand him" which searches for "Jesus as he is". I might believe it if told that the author of this section is in favor of searching for "Jesus as he is", and might try to pursue that or talk about it around younger people. But, a church that is too good at making a comfortable, complete mental environment (intellectually comfortable even if not so in other ways), reduces the likelihood that the church as a whole will spontaneously generate the openness to change that may be necessary if their "Jesus as they understand him" is bad. Or, taking all churches in the church universal, if the church universal is always really good at integrating people into its own environments, if the church needs reform, there may not be enough reformers.

--

The author talks a lot about children being the spiritual teachers of adults. I like this thought, generally.

I think that an adult can easily filter out the immaturity of children and disregard [it] in terms of its instructive value, and instead focus on the ways that children are mature, more so, or differently, than adults. Likewise, adolescents and young adults are similar to children in that respect.

"Maturity as we understand it" is shaped by secular thinking (like by academic psychology, or mental health), and also by the ways that we are damaged and recover as we live. Secular thinking can have some wisdom but is not totally reliable and can invalidate belief in and trust of God. The ways that we are damaged and heal may be like the ways that we lose a limb but now the pain has gone away from healing -- better that we hadn't lost the limb in the first place, and better that it grow back than that we make our "adult" state the standard for "the way things should be".

When we change our minds, we think we have done so toward a better truth, and often that is so. But we can also change our minds due to something like (or literally?) brain damage, and life with its traumas and grinding sameness and ongoingness does something to us that it hasn't yet done to those sufficiently younger than us.

In other words, wisdom is the natural gift of older people, but some wisdom is bad wisdom. Children may accept good wisdom more readily than adults, for lacking the damage acquired by adults.

Along the Way notes

Ch. 4

The author mentions Deuteronomy 6:20-22 which talks about children asking the meaning of the observance of the Mosaic Law. Children ask questions about all kinds of things. So parents (and sometimes others) have to give some kind of answer.

I feel like at this point, I'm reaching the limits of my experience, because I don't spend much time around children, do not have any of my own. So maybe I won't say how it is that parents should explain MSLN to their children, because I don't know and don't trust myself to guess. I guess you can always try to tell your children the truth, without intending that they convert to your religion (in keeping with what I've written already in these notes). But I don't know how to do that.

Along the Way notes

Ch. 5

p. 65 --As J. J. Dillon has put it, children are "deep thinkers and feelers who wrestle with life's mysteries and hunger for meaning and value by which to live their lives." [source for Dillon quote: "The Spiritual Child: Appreciating Children's Transformative Effects on Adults," Encounter 13 (2000): 4]--

Do we find ourselves encountering adults who are "deep feelers and thinkers who wrestle with life's mysteries and hunger for meaning and value by which to live their lives"? Do we take them seriously? The framing of "wrestle with life's mysteries" makes it sound like the profound truths are things that if you try to engage with them, the best you can manage is to "wrestle" with them, and they will always remain "mysteries". In other words, you will naively think there are useful answers to those questions, but in fact there are not, and you will struggle uselessly to understand them. This might prove you to be a "good person" or a "deep person", but also from another perspective, a "stupid person" or a "naive person". We can afford to be patronizing to children (although that may not be the author of this chapter's, or Dillon's, intended meaning), by praising them for thinking and feeling deeply (uselessly), for being noble humans with sensitive spirits, but adults have "reality" to deal with -- tasks to do, things to maintain. Children may be among their things to maintain, and maybe spending time in their deep thinking / feeling, meaning-seeking world is good for our children, so that their hearts can be validated until they are old enough to not need meaning, and instead perform tasks and fit in to a social environment, like a functional adult.

But, as Dillon's article title and quote may together suggest, maybe children can have a transformative effect on adults by showing the adults that deep-thinking-and-feeling, meaning-seeking side. Do we see parents, once presented by that side, feeling something stir in them, their own childhood coming to them to be integrated with their adulthood, and the adults then becoming deep-thinking, deep-feeling meaning-seekers? Or do the adults instead feel a sense of "being humbled" and honor their children, while not fundamentally adopting their children's values? Are their children an image of God that they "worship" rather than "obey", or rather than grasping by sharing the same heart? Maybe the outcome depends on the specific parents in question.

Framing the truth as a "profound mystery" is supposed to humble us, but then it becomes useless since we can't understand it. But what if the truth really makes perfect sense, is just as profound as ever, and therefore motivates us to behave (perhaps radically) differently? Children may be looking for the non-mysterious truth, that's what we call "wrestling with mystery".

--

Overall, I like the sensibility of this chapter / author better than the previous ones, (a note to those who might only want to read part of this book).

The chapter ends (p. 76) with: --Along the way, we adults can also grow, for the best way to learn is to teach, and the best way to be loved is to love.--

--

Ch. 6

The author (same as last chapter) talks about techniques of prayer with children.

It's possible that adult-initiated prayers push prayer into a child's mind (same with other religious experiences), but that this could be a bad thing in the long run. For one, this makes prayer a social thing. Social things have a fleshly compellingness (peer pressure, desire to please authority figures, perhaps other social instincts). Maybe the child doesn't deeply want to pray, and will learn to go through the motions on many levels but not deeply love and trust God for him- or herself.

Also, any experience can become obsessing and burn a person out if it is repeated too often. This was my experience with church services, the inciting event for me quitting going to church. As a child, I felt like, for religious reasons, I needed to fully engage with every prayer and every song that was part of my environment. Eventually, the corrosiveness of those prayers and songs (as experiences, as social obligations) broke my ability to tolerate them. Praying or singing (or the like) in a home might be seen as a magic spell to bring God into a family, but the magic can work far too well, at least for people like me.

(Spells are often cast out of anxiety.)

--

Finished ch. 6.

--

Ch. 7

--

Finished Ch. 7

--

Ch. 8

--

This chapter is about how unbiblical theological presuppositions are why Churches of Christ don't let children take communion.

I am not sure about the biblical warrant for excluding children, but I do think it's good to have some exclusive elements to church, which say "you are not there yet, you need to change before you're really a Christian". The author of this chapter seems to want to include everyone into one body -- one body in which we all belong. But does that one body belong to God? No, not exactly. It's not just that "we all sin" or "we all mess up", which are words that will bring you inclusion and belonging in the social structure of the church, so unless you are sufficiently theistically minded, you will think "I'm okay" since what you really track is whether a people group includes you, not whether you love God with all your being. The sense of "I'm not there yet", should sober you and drive you, because there is real danger to remaining where you are in your moral development and your relationship to God.

The author describes a historical, modern, and near-future vision of Church of Christ communion. The historical and modern are affected by individualist and Anselmian (penal substitutionary) ideas. But the near future one makes communion about entering the Messianic era.

I am not convinced from this chapter that Anselm was totally wrong. My naive sense, from reading a book on the atonement, is that there are multiple theories of the atonement, which all make some sense, but aren't conclusively "the" answer. Maybe from an Anselmian point of view, we should exclude (children? the unbaptized? the unconfirmed? those who are not disciples of Jesus?) from communion.

Church wants to include everyone, but the disciples of Jesus are few. I remember when I was just entering college, I was appraised by two different older people, one of whom was an individualist Christian, who casually called me someone "raised in the church", rather than Christian, the other a church-attending Christian who, after hearing what I said, said that I wasn't a Christian. But I had gone to church and identified myself with Christianity... I called myself a Christian -- wasn't I a Christian? What is this label "Christian" and why should we want it so much? Being a disciple of Jesus is somewhat better defined -- do you obey Jesus' commands in the Gospels? Do you seriously aspire to? But "Christian" is something that has been and is defined by the church, and it's unclear whether it's really about inclusion in the social body of the church or if it means that you are saved in the eyes of God, or something else.

It's the church's job (so it seems) to include everyone, but Jesus says that some follow him, and some don't. Do we prevent people from really following Jesus by turning them into "Christians"?

A challenge for MSLN Christianity would be to say "church and disciples are one", at least in that "in our general assembly, our maximally socially inclusive space, we preach a gospel of you are not there yet and there is real spiritual danger to that, and graciously, there is a way for you to get there, obey Jesus". In that way, the identity of "I really belong to the 'body of Christ' (the church universal, which we perhaps unjustifiably indentify with corporate churches and the particular corporate church we attend)" does not smother or prevent the possibility of motions of sober drivenness toward complete holiness.

The "Messianic kingdom" means something to the author -- I suppose not an Anselmian or individualist thing. I think for him it has something to do with being the people who do God's work in the world. (The people who call people to repent so that Jesus' blood of atonement can cover them? Seemingly not. The people who call people to repent to the point of having the heart of God -- i.e. completely turning against sin and being willing to go to the literal cross, putting God ahead of even their own lives? That might sound better to him, but I'm not sure in practice that's what he has in mind. It's possible he really means "feed people physical food" or "help people with the same psychological problems a secular therapist would" and things in that category.)

In any case, the Messianic kingdom sounds good to me, for some meaning of "Messianic kingdom", and I can agree that probably that is part of the meaning of the Lord's Supper.

The author ends the chapter like this (p. 124): --The theological trajectories we inherited for the Lord's Supper are being challenged and transformed. So, what would happen if the table we gather around on Sunday morning lost its boundary markers and altar theology, and instead, became an enactment of the Messianic era? What would happen if we welcomed our children to a table that empowered them to shape their lives by the story of Jesus? What would happen if our children saw a table without boundaries? Would it then not lead our children to be bearers of the Messianic kingdom? Would our children not be living out the story of Jesus?--

I am not too optimistic about the power of official rituals to shape deep commitment, at least, not without the children, themselves, apart form anyone else ("individualistically", perhaps), taking on the identity of disciple of Jesus, relating to God by themselves, for themselves. This is part of the story of Jesus, who was an individual.

Official things are things which a social group institutes by its own authority whether its members agree to it in every moment or not. Perhaps sometimes it is the case that all members agree to one official institution at one point in time, by taking a vote. But after that, there is no essential guarantee that an official statement made by a group is really affirmed by everyone in it. So the official thing provides a face for everyone without them necessarily really being the rest of the person behind the face. Official things help create a sense of "we are a social body", which can have some benefits. But they are also dangerous because they enable people to wear a face that is not theirs, and to see the face that is not theirs when they look in a mirror.

(Looking back, I agree with the two people who thought I wasn't necessarily a Christian when I was a freshman in college.)

Why did Jesus institute the Lord's Supper? I haven't done a thorough study of this. But clearly at least he did institute a ritual. How often did he intend us to take the Lord's Supper? Some churches practice it once a week, but others only once a year. Some takings of the Lord's Supper can be meaningful, in the sense of being communicative of something deep. I think I have experienced that twice in my life. Those two, or at least one of them, was sacramental -- not because a priest (or magisterium) said so, or because it was some kind of dry objective fact in which I had faith, but because of my own relationship with God in the spiritual world at that particular time in my life, I knew that that particular experience was a kind of communicative vision. I do not assume that my weekly takings of communion back when I went to church had any special power or significance, any more than if I said Christian words without really meaning them. Maybe we should only take communion a few times in our lives, or only when moved to personally. Then, it should not be offered regularly, but should be sought out.

I could see a small group of people spontaneously (and non-coercively) seeking out the Lord's Supper, such that all of them really did want to do it. But the larger the group, the more official that institution becomes, and the more likely a significant portion of people are just along for the ride. "Power is a broken relationship" if some people can affect many people without the many (or individuals in the many) being able to affect them back. "Coercion", "force", and this kind of "power" are all the same, or are significantly similar. If you do things in a large group, you tend to have a few people, or a majority, making decisions for every individual. If you don't feel moved to take communion at the time and setting, and in the manner, decided by some impenetrable "leadership" or "church majority", you can take it or leave it. Maybe the most expedient thing to do is to turn part of yourself off and make a meaningless action at the expected time.

Humility says that you change yourself to fit other people (maybe... but why don't other people humbly change themselves to allow you to not have to fit them when that's not necessary?) If humility says that you change yourself to fit other people, then you could easily go from being real and a misfit, to being fake but outwardly compliant. (Perhaps there is a humility to undergoing the rigors and isolation that come from obeying God, who sometimes is the one who tells you who you are in opposition to your social setting.)

--

Ch. 9

This chapter is about baptism, with a connection to how to approach children's baptism. It's the first of two chapters on the subject.

So far, I agree with the author about some things, perhaps many. For instance, the old view of baptism in the Churches of Christ was much like other conservative Protestants -- in that, there was a view that there is a life of sin, some decisive conversion with some kind of act, and then a state of being saved. So baptism happened to be the completion of the decisive conversion in the Churches of Christ, unlike saying the "sinner's prayer" or something like that in other groups. This old view is sort of what I was raised under, and it didn't exactly make sense. I certainly lacked an important element of salvation when I was growing up, but I also possessed an important element of it. I couldn't easily repent of my whole-souled alienation from God, but that meant I couldn't easily "repent to" a whole-souled identification with God. I now understand that my lack of a whole-souled identification with God is enough to keep me out of heaven (and threatens to keep, I assume, the author of this chapter out of heaven, along with any other church person -- in that sense, nobody is saved). I think I agree with some of this chapter's author's emphases on holiness, but I am not sure he understands that holiness is life-or-death.

I think there are two kinds of people: those who effectively enough see that it is possible (or probable, or certain) that there is something life or death about life and that we don't necessarily know what it is or are in right relationship with that truth, but must come to know (or have come to know) it, or the way to it; and those who do not effectively enough see that. I got the feeling after reading this chapter that the author is not a "life-or-death" type person. Conservative Protestants, perhaps, or conservative Americans, tend to be that more so. The secular people who are responsible for life and death issues tend to be more so. I think that if I were a conservative Protestant, or a serious-minded secular person, I would not trust the author of this chapter, because he seems to not understand or even be cleverly avoiding the issue of life or death.

I do agree with the author that my naive reading of the New Testament (or maybe the Bible as a whole) does not leave me with the sense that sins or atonement for sins are "the" issue. I have learned (to my chagrin, I guess) that my own writing can have an emphasis that obscures the facts that it presents. (I wrote a book that presents Christian words, but I fear that its emphasis is really on left-leaning, existentialist-leaning, humanism -- not sufficiently theistic humanism, thus effectively secular humanism -- which was not my intention.)

Even if the emphasis of the scriptures is on something other than life or death, for someone concerned with life or death, do its words say "don't worry about life-or-death"? Are the facts of the worldview presented in scripture such that we can forget about that, just because it has some language that doesn't sound directly oriented toward life-or-death, to the level of bluntness and simplicity (/ oversimplification) of revivalism? It may be unfortunate that Scripture is written in such a way that it can be misinterpreted, but the wise will not forget the truth when they read it. The quiet words, if taken as seriously as they deserve to be taken, can really deserve to dominate our understanding of the plentiful, loud words.

(I don't know where that principle of interpretation would take someone if applied rigorously, but it makes sense to me.)

I believe that children who are not baptized do not go to hell for that, but instead are resurrected to the Millennium along with most other people, where they can get baptized if it's necessary for salvation. I don't think we can rule out that it is necessary for salvation, as it's (probably?) part of obedience to God, and total obedience to God is necessary for salvation. It is dangerous to bias children against baptism or that they think that it couldn't possibly have anything to do with salvation, because that could make them resist obeying God -- those are some important things for us to think about in this life. It is a good thing for children to be baptized whenever it is really their idea and they basically understand what it means (at least I don't see an obvious problem with that and I do see a strong prima facie motivation for it).

--

Ch. 10

--

Finished Ch. 10

--

I thought I should re-read chapter nine to explain some of what I said about it.

--

p. 126 - 127 --Growing out of a heritage of revivalist preaching, the meaning and significance of baptism might seem plain and obvious: sinners are baptized to express their obedience to Christ, to have their sins washed away, and to become members of the Lord's church. This is good, as far as it goes. Yet when we turn to the New Testament, we discover that Jesus and the early Christian writers go much further.--

The question I would have to begin with is: what is most important? Could it be anything other than keeping people out of hell, so that they can be with God forever? If you do something like Pascal's wager, you see that mathematically, eternal life dominates everything else. You might also think of it like: do people matter? If people really matter, shouldn't they exist? The thing that makes them not exist (from an annihilationist standpoint, which I think is probably the Biblical one and the only one which makes sense philosophically) is hell. So if you love people, if you really value them, you must keep them out of hell. If they go to hell, they are lost, and no longer exist. It doesn't matter how nice their lives were, or how good their religious walk was, unless those things contribute to keeping them out of hell, so that they can continue to exist, with God.

If this emphasis on people and them existing matters, then if we lose sight of it, we have been deceived.

Now, I can see how obeying Christ and having a person's sins washed away could connect to people living, existing, with God, and not dying / being destroyed. Being a member of the church might have some connection.

The author of ch. 9 wants to add things to these, to flesh out baptism. Do any of these take away our responsibility to be concerned for the salvation of people (including children), from the second death; at all, or especially with respect to the roles of baptism in helping people be saved?

The author lists the following other interpretations of baptism: p. 127 --an ordeal of sacrifice and self-denial-- --a sacred womb, a place of spiritual rebirth, where a person goes in order to see what the kingdom looks like-- --like crossing the Red Sea, a watershed event of liberation that helps define the identity of the people and their covenant relationship with God-- --[a place to] leave behind the evil powers that had enslaved them to drown under the waves-- --the baptistery as a tomb: taken under the water to join Jesus in death, the baptized person is raised up to live differently-- --baptism is the water floating Noah's boat, saving humankind-- --an adoption ritual, a special venue of operation for the Holy Spirit, washing and renewing a person by God's grace so that they may become heirs of the Father, full of hope and the good deeds flowing out of it. --the baptistery is a place to meet the community of faith and become part of Jesus' body, as one of its many members; it is a key to congregational unity and instrumental in helping disciples find their places in the body-- --the baptistery is a place to change clothes, putting on Jesus, and it dismantles false distinctions between people by putting everyone on the same footing before God-- --Baptism connects a person with the Father, Son, and Spirit, opening a door into the very life of God--

He ends that list with --And yes -- baptism cleans us, bringing forgiveness of sins--

The effect that his rhetoric has on me is to make me think "Oh, forgiveness of sins is this little thing over to the side, but look how rich and deep is this baptism concept! Look at how beautiful, spiritual, and poetic it really is!" Because, for better or worse, the Bible is often beautiful, spiritual, and poetic. But... still... what about people ending up in hell? Isn't that last part (about bringing forgiveness of sins) completely dominant over everything else, unless they also contribute to keeping people out of hell? And, if they also contribute to salvation, isn't it unlikely that they remove the importance of forgiveness, by adding more things that are also of life and death importance?

I wonder if the author of this chapter has some doctrinal understanding somewhere that causes him to think that a) there is some other source of forgiveness of sins, or b) that forgiveness of sins doesn't matter. Maybe I missed it, reading the chapter the first time.

p. 127 - 128 --How many different ways can we talk about the importance of baptism and its meaning? The Bible shows how important baptism was to Jesus, the apostles, and the early church. Underemphasizing baptism is an answer to many different questions. Yet the questions are not so much about qualifying for church membership or certifying eternal destiny. Most of the time, they are not even about how to "get saved." Instead, they are more about identity, the direction of a person's life, their place within the community, handling relationships, and cooperating with the activity of the Father, Son, and Spirit in experiencing daily transformation of character and behavior.--

The author's rhetoric starts out by reassuring me that baptism is important (at least, that's its effect on me). Baptism is so important, its meaning is so rich, that it's mostly not about "getting saved". He doesn't deny that it's about getting saved. But "getting saved" (is this identical with people not being destroyed in hell?) is not that big a deal to him? Perhaps this is only his emphasis, or the effect of his words on me. Does he deny that baptism can be about "certifying eternal destiny" when he says that baptism is "not so much" about that? I wouldn't assume that baptism is the sole determining factor of salvation, but surely if it washes away sins, it might be a necessary part of it?

Does the author think that baptism is a life-or-death thing that must be accomplished before someone can go to heaven, or not?

Does life-or-deathness matter? Does baptism perform a necessary role in salvation (in some sense removing or forgiving sin)? If baptism is a life-or-death thing, and life-or-deathness matters, then it makes a lot of sense to have a revivalist view of baptism. It makes sense to be anxious about whether your children have entered the age of accountability and now if they die for some unforeseen reason, they might be going to hell. It makes sense to communicate to your children that they are not full members of the church, because in fact they are not saved and should not completely feel like they are. Their faith in God may be pure and innocent, but God is completely holy and every child has sinned. Maybe that makes God weird and inhumane in our eyes, but perhaps that seems so to us because we are not holy ourselves and lack the intuitive sense that sin is unacceptable. Much of what the author pushes back against comes out of simply being concerned about the loss of people and thinking that baptism has some essential role to play in them not being lost, through dealing with their sin problem.

p. 129 --In short, less preoccupation with the "essentiality of baptism" and greater study of its essence would be a welcome change, going a long way towards equipping us to address those practical matters from a solid foundation.--

The author goes on to a section entitled "The Essence of Baptism".

He says that baptism is about Jesus. With regard to the famous Acts 2:38 passage, he says that baptism of cleansing for sin was a normal Jewish thing, but what was really new was the promise of "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and that all this was centered "in the name of Jesus". Somehow, as a reader, I feel like just proved that forgiveness of sins doesn't matter, because of that. Does this make sense logically? Maybe if we say "Jewish things are false, irrelevant, something like that, but new, specifically Christian things are true, relevant, valid, etc." Is that what the author wants to claim? It might be fitting in a Church of Christ context to reject Jewish understandings in favor of post-Jewish ones. Are there ever cases when Jewish religious understandings are correct, and might this be one of them? Is there any chance that when Peter said that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins [or he might have said that when he said "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" and we can't rule that out], he might have been saying what was true and impressed on him by Jesus or the Spirit to say? I wouldn't take any chances with salvation. I would go ahead and assume baptism has something essential to do with washing away sins. If not, fine. [If it turns out it doesn't, that's fine.]

I remember growing up, I was aware of Baptist responses to Church of Christ doctrines on baptism. One of them was "if baptism is necessary for salvation, then why isn't it sufficiently emphasized such that no one could possibly be uncertain about whether it is necessary?" My response to that nowadays is, why should we assume that God is interested in making things that easy for us? Maybe he's looking for people who really love him and are searching for ways to follow him, taking responsibility to look through reality to find ways to follow him, instead of having him feed us the plan of salvation, requiring less initiative on our part, or perhaps none at all. But, that has the cruel implication that many of us will never be saved, because no one taught us to look at reality. (But I will address why I am not worried about that cruel implication later.)

I assume that many people are tired of Baptist-Church of Christ debates -- if they are not still a thing to the intended audience of this book, then the older readers and writer of the book might remember those old days without fondness. But, is the issue here really that "yeah, basically the Baptists are right" or people end up making a doctrinal move that happens to align them with the Baptists all along. This may be appropriate, if the Baptists are right, but it seems like the kind of thing that should talked about openly.

p. 130 --By his own admission, Jesus was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness". It was the right thing for him to do. That may surprise some of us who have traditionally approached baptism strictly as a legal maneuver by which we deal with our sins, or as the culmination of a conversion process, since those are two things that Jesus' baptism could not mean. He needed neither conversion nor forgiveness.--

Maybe baptism is about (at least) two things: obedience, and washing away sins. Jesus, being clean, was washed, but no sins were removed. Jesus was obeying God, and if he never got baptized, he would have sinned. So Jesus was fulfilling righteousness by obeying God, and we have the same need to obey. In contrast to Jesus, we have sins that need (in some sense) to be washed away by baptism.

p. 133 --Salvation is a journey and a process. There may be a sense in which the Lord's salvation is a thing we can possess, or a state that we enter at a certain crucial point in our walk, but there is also a deep sense in which "we are being saved," (1 Cor. 1:18). In other words, we are caught up in an ongoing process of salvation, as part of a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17)".--

I agree with the author of this chapter that salvation is a journey. I think growing up in the church is much more of a gradual journey experience than an intense and clear decision. But I think that for a conservative Church of Christ person, their concern might be something like this (I knew some conservative Church of Christ members when I was in college, and I hope I am remembering their point of view accurately): "Yes, salvation is a journey. We want to get as far from falling away from God and losing our salvation as possible. That's a journey. Yes, we grow to love God more deeply. Also a journey. But superimposed on that 'journey' metaphor is the concept of 'are your sins washed away?' and we want to know, have our sins been forgiven? Have our children's sins been forgiven? If they have reached the age of accountability and not been baptized, and die, do they go to hell?" Saying that salvation is a journey doesn't exactly deal with that issue.

He goes on to talk about how salvation is about becoming like Jesus. I feel like a basic holiness message would not have been too strange to the conservative Church of Christ people I knew. Still the question remains, in terms of dealing with past sins, how do we know that those are dealt with? Do we need to be baptized for them to be washed away?

p. 136 --We [authorial "we"] recognize that all people are (or become) sinners and need forgiveness. That includes children raised in the church.--

I guess it's possible that some kids haven't sinned yet, but how would their parents know that? How would the kids know that? The author acknowledges the possibility of needing forgiveness. So if people need forgiveness, oughtn't there be some urgency to getting them baptized, if that is necessary for forgiveness?

Immediately following: --Nor do we want to downplay the importance of powerful spiritual experiences in the lives of young people. But to treat those preparing for baptism as if the only way to get ready is by owning up to their sinfulness or by having an intense experience of some kind, is to ignore the fact that different people come to baptism in different ways.. This was true in the first century as it is today. The Gentile idol-worshipper who was accustomed to the immoral life of his pagan culture experienced baptism in a very different way than the law-abiding Jewess who had been preparing for the Messiah's coming all her life. Their journeys into the baptistery to join Jesus were similar in some ways, but very different in others.--

I guess the implication is that church kids are like the "law-abiding Jewess", while adult converts are like the "Gentile idol-worshipper"? Was the law-abiding Jewess sinless? No, probably not. Then probably the church kids aren't sinless either. Needing forgiveness isn't about having done really bad things or turning away from God. It's just about at all having intended something against God or consciously-enough failed to intend something that would go with loving God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Anything less than 100% is sin, and sin leads to death. Being a merely good person doesn't save you. So they "Jewess", "Gentile", church kid, and adult convert are all basically in the same situation of needing forgiveness, perhaps urgently. It's like if you have four people whose livers are failing, one because of a car accident that damaged the liver, one because of a congenital defect, one because of years of drinking, and one from hepatitis C from years of injection drugs -- that's a complicated set of issues some of which may involve it being somewhat due to the sin of the people involved, but we really can't judge. It's complicated, and all their life stories are nuanced and particular. But, is it, or is it not, the case that they need a liver transplant to keep them from dying soon? In that sense, they are all the same and should be told basically the same thing.

I think maybe the issue with baptism is that it is both about conversion and about washing away sins (if you believe that's what it does), and it is less necessary for conversion than for washing away sins. [I don't understand what motivated this paragraph now. It might make more sense if you have just read the relevant part of Along the Way.]

p. 140 --Furthermore, although we would not presume to speak for God, Scripture does not support an attitude of fear and anxiety regarding the status of unbaptized children in the church, as if the ceremony of baptism were necessary to convey magical protection of our loved ones.--

This is sort of true and sort of not. The background worldview of the New Testament is that people can be lost to hell, there is a way to heaven through Jesus, and Jesus commands and institutes different things which contribute to salvation. I can't think of any time the NT church says much one way or another about child salvation or anxiety about that. I'm not sure exactly what the emphasis of the NT is, but it doesn't have a clear "letter of Paul where he lays out revivalism verse after verse". So maybe from a literary perspective, it "feels" like it's really about some kind of narrative other than life-or-death, are you saved?

(I think it's perfectly fine for God to institute a ceremony which conveys magical protection of our loved ones, and fully in keeping with reality. (Putting a seatbelt on -- is that a magical ceremony?))

--

Now, I do agree with the author that revivalism has its flaws. For instance, what happens if you slip on the way to the baptistery? Baptists have it a little easier, because if you intend to follow God, then there's no tragedy if you die soon after, since you're going to heaven. But then, what about the "age of accountability" that seems necessary for those who practice believer's baptism, or, I would think, equally well for those who say that children are in need of salvation at some age, even if all they have to do is something like pray the "sinner's prayer"? Exactly when does that age of accountability kick in? Can anyone know when their little ones are safely innocent, or when they have just slipped over into needing salvation or else they go to hell when they die?

There are some more problems that are faced when we consider the process of evangelism, given the thought that people need to follow Jesus to be saved. For instance, what if the youth minister at your church decided not to take you to the annual regional youth rally? But that was the year that that one speaker was going to be there, who uniquely spoke to your sinfulness, who could have brought you to a state of repentance and conversion? Or what if you are a member of an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon (and there are still some, by the way)? Or you lived in the New World before Columbus came?

I don't think that there is no such thing as tragedy, that God stamps it all out. But I do think that he would not design a system of life that would cause there to be unforced errors on his part in bringing people to salvation. Having a world where people need to hear about Jesus to be saved (so that they can respond appropriately), but that world is significantly bad at giving them a chance, and then they go to hell when they die, does not sound like something God would do, because God is a self-interested being, and his personal desire is for us to live. Self-interested beings do rational things.

It's always possible that God is doing something mysterious or strange that he understands and that we never will, but it's also possible that we just don't understand the not-too-mysterious truth. I tend to think that if possible, I should understand God, because then I will understand his point of view better, and can love him better that way. If I reach the limit of my understanding, maybe then there is an insoluble mystery that I have to live with. But, is that the case here?

I am not an expert on the Bible, and knowing the Bible is the kind of intellectual work that I am not good at, because I don't retain and manage bodies of facts very well. But, I did read someone else's take on the Bible that is very well-researched (although I can't say that I know for certain that it is absolutely correct, because I don't have the "chops" to seriously verify it). My strength is more in philosophy, and I see how it works there, and that mostly contents me to say that it's true.

The basic idea is that we don't go to heaven or hell when we die, instead, we rest in the grave, then we are resurrected after Jesus returns, live on earth a thousand years (the Millennium / Resurrection) and then when that's up, we either go to heaven or hell. During those thousand years, we hear about Jesus, and learn. (Some of us also weep and gnash our teeth, and experience the penalties of having been wealthy, fake Christians, or whatever -- which are not the same as hell, and which don't necessarily keep us out of heaven.) We can't enter heaven unless we are no longer sinners, and the process of overcoming sin is not trivial, but if we don't procrastinate, we can make it, it just could be hard and take a long time. It's possible for us to harden ourselves (similar idea to "falling away") and thus be incapable of growing to the point of 100% repentance and being in tune with God, loving him with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strength.

So from this point of view, I would say that we should move with a certain kind of urgency toward obeying God whenever we get the chance, to ward off the tendency to get into procrastination. So it makes sense for the child to want to be baptized once they make the decision, and not wait around very long.

Obviously a child can't repent except under their own will, so you can't really do anything to make your child come into tune with God in their hearts, except provide an environment in which they are provided the good ideas and good examples to choose to follow. You can apply your will to get them to behave or feel or even think they believe something, and maybe they will also really believe that thing to some extent, but maybe they don't and it was just the strength of your will on them. Sometimes that's okay (like keeping them from urgent physical harm), but when it comes to choosing God, to turn away from sin, and toward him, that's 100% their decision and you can't do any persuading of them any which way. But again, providing them with good choices is helpful.

What about baptism? Should you apply your will to get your kid to be baptized? Baptism is a discrete event -- so if your will overshadows theirs, is that not really a baptism? Maybe not. So maybe then that's a reason for them to validly need to be re-baptized, because in some important sense, they didn't mean it themselves the first time.

If your child dies, that is painful but doesn't have to be tragic, because they aren't going to hell (except in some exceedingly unlikely event that they have hardened themselves so young), and unless you harden yourself, which you are unlikely to do in this life, you will be resurrected to the next life and you can see them again (unless there's some unusual reason that you wouldn't).

Does it matter if they are baptized to wash away their sins? I'm not 100% sure about baptism, but I see that it certainly could be necessary, and that's good enough for me. I'd do it, if I hadn't already. If it is necessary to wash away sins, just like how hearing about Jesus is necessary for salvation, everyone gets a chance to fill in that gap in the Millennium.

--

Re-read ch. 10 (the follow up to ch. 9).

--

Read ch. 11

--

Started ch. 12.

So far I like the taste of this chapter and author as much as or more than the other one I liked (ch. 5 and 6) and would also recommend it to be read. [On finishing the chapter, I still think so.]

--

p. 180 --I recently heard the phrase "What we win them with is what we win them to."--

This in reference to how when we make children's ministry into a fun thing (like with talking vegetable videos or making children's church happen inside a spaceship), we might be making them into consumers of church, and then years later they won't be able to be workers in the church.

I wonder to what extent it's worth teaching children at all? Maybe it's best to leave them to play all throughout their childhoods, and just pick up Bible teaching that trickles down to them, that they overhear from people reading the Bible out loud, or that their peers talk about. Probably this does not sound like a good idea from the perspective of this book overall, and likely not from the author of this chapter. But if you take "don't be consumerist" and take it far enough, do you end up with the cold and dark side of the truth that even adult church shies away from? (The numerous ways Satan deceives and attacks us, our weird and frightening God who must be respected, and/or our weird and frightening world where God struggles to do good, or the danger that we are all in from sin, how none of us entirely has our salvation secure, as some examples.) These topics can only be really talked about in a serious spirit, or they sound unbelievable. But can we teach children with such a serious spirit? Perhaps we can avoid talking about those examples given, if they are "too much" for children, and certainly adults can sort of give lip service (or "mind service") to dark realities that they become intellectually aware of when they are older. But I don't know that people can become serious enough to really get those realities such that they can be very effective given them if the climate of their minds filters them out. And that climate is established when children are young.

I suppose I was raised in that climate, and have managed to get out of it. The way I did so was through doggedness, turning back to the text even when it didn't make sense culturally and thus experientially to me (I had the filters), and then lots of intense personal experience which opened up the world of spiritual darkness to me (the darkness that is present very commonly in people's lives at various times, but which is somehow usually unseeable). I don't expect other people to have the same background as me. So, should we teach children about God, if that roots them in "child-appropriate" views of the world? Perhaps we could teach them, but not in a fun, engaging, way, or even as "normal people", going against what feels to us like "child-appropriate" teaching.

Maybe the way to look at this teaching is like what someone earlier in the book said: is this "first-approximation" teaching something that can be revised successfully when children are older? So, is the "vibe" of a teacher (or of all the adults in the church), such that children connect with seriousness, sufficient to face spiritual darkness and death when they get older?

The irony is that children's lived experiences are often closer to that of "I live in a weird, scary world of spirits and inexplicable rules of life" than many adults are. Maybe adults are frightened of children's fears, and keep them from fearing? I think we sometimes try to protect children from dark realities when they are young. But darkness is already a part of their lives, so how can they deal with it? What may be the case is that they are not ready cognitively to fully understand darkness. But darkness is a part of their lives and they have to deal with it somehow. We also try to keep adult realities out of kids' minds. Maybe this has some use, but kids are already living in the adult world and have to deal with it. And they have to grow up to become adults someday. Maybe it would be better if they started preparing for that when they were young.

A children's teacher could be transparent, and simply be open about their own experiences (with some discretion, for protecting legitimate privacy concerns, and for what the children can handle).

--

Finished ch. 12.

--

ch. 13

p. 195 (quoting Stewart and Berryman, Young Children and Worship, pp. 13 - 14): --The experience of God is one of mystery, awe and wonder.--

This sentiment is one that I feel like I read more than once from various authors in this book.

For me, the experience of God is either one of business-like guidance and support, or if more "heightened" or "special", of closeness, perhaps empathy and sorrow (me empathizing with him), and kinship. To some extent this follows from MSLN.

--

Finished ch. 13

--

Ch. 14

This book is about involving children in "the mission of the church".

p. 208 --Children are often moved to action when they encounter pain. They are kingdom bearers and as such must participate in God's redemptive work by sharing hope, showing compassion, and proclaiming the gospel.--

(After a description of taking kids to do disaster relief at a site of a severe tornado.)

Not so much as a comment on this chapter, here's a thought of how I might talk to children who are moved by the pain of the world.

People are different. In any given day, or year, there are things that a given person is good at. Some people are good at one thing, some good at another. Some people love to do certain things and thus do them a lot, and usually get better at them. Some people are good at doing things, but don't like doing them, or to work on them wears them out. If you can work at something you're good at for many years, that's a good personal fit.

Children are not as good as adults at doing some things, because they don't have as much practice. Adults, though, aren't as good as children at learning new things. So when you are a child, you have an advantage over adults in being able to learn. You can learn all kinds of things -- all about cartoons, movies, music, toys, games, etc., but also about how to care about people and how to work. It is okay to learn about cartoons, movies, music, etc., but if you want to learn more about caring about people and how to work, that helps you to help people someday.

Maybe you can try to have a higher paying job someday, and donate the extra money you make to good charities. Or, you can try to prepare for a job that directly helps people. People have physical needs (food, water, shelter, healthcare), psychological needs (the ability to trust, the ability to protect their mind from bad thoughts), social needs (the ability to relate well to other people), and spiritual needs (the ability to love and trust God). You can seek to learn more that will help you be competent and experienced in any of these areas. Then, you will be more prepared when you are older to go down life paths that help a lot of people (and also don't harm too many people as a side effect).

(I could come up with a long list of professions that fit into meeting the needs listed in the previous paragraph.)

You may someday choose a career for yourself that focuses on meeting those needs. You could choose one major in college over another based on thinking about that. Or if you don't go to college, you could pick one trade or line of business to invest your time and/or money in, or another. But, if you find yourself unable to control the way your life goes as much as you want, you can always work with whatever part of your life is under your control, and try to use that as effectively as you can. Maybe you can just focus on becoming a good friend or family member, because there is also a need for that.

(A long list of non-career ways to help.)

As a child, you may get the opportunity to work in the field that you feel called to, or to practice doing good in some other way. That's good training, and does some good. But if not, you can at least read books, watch videos, etc. that help you prepare, and try to think deeply about what it would be like to do good.

--

p. 213 --Children often think outside the box of limited resources and time and encourage the church to engage in opportunities for service that may have been overlooked.--

This is part of the comparative advantage of children.

(Also mentioned on pp. 213 - 214 are children's abilities to do simple things (perform gestures or acts of care with simplicity), and by being children who communicate as an act of care, (my thought:) bearing the loadedness of "child", which means something to the recipient of care, a bit of connection with family, innocence, simple caring, etc.)

--

Finished ch. 14

--

Ch. 15

p. 229 --I believe that if we listen to children long enough and carefully enough, they too will tell us what they need. This kind of listening requires relationship. As we seek to welcome children, we cannot simply implement the right programs or find the perfect techniques. We must know children, and they must know us. Hospitality is a relational act, not a strategy. When we build trusting and respectful relationships with children, we may be surprised how insightful they can be about their own needs.--

(After a discussion of the author's father, who as a physician had a similar approach to diagnosing patients.)

I wonder if this works even more generally, that a kind of attention (a listening to and waiting on) reveals the deeper needs, at least in cultural / psychological / social / political type worlds. And similarly the requirement that we be in a relationship with the world we want to diagnose.

--

Finished Ch. 15 / the book overall.

Book Review: Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller (with Kathy Keller)

See also the preview for this review.

Like with the other reviews released around this time, I don't have much to add to this right now other than the notes I wrote.

--

[Notes:]

The Meaning of Marriage notes

p. 21

--Marriage is glorious but hard. It's a burning joy and strength, and yet it is also blood, sweat, and tears, humbling defeats and exhausting victories. No marriage I know more than a few weeks old could be described as a fairy tale come true. Therefore it is not surprising that the only phrase in Ephesians 5 that many couples can relate to is verse 32, printed above. Sometimes you fall into bed, after a long, hard day of trying to understand each other, and you can only sigh: "This is all a profound mystery!" At times, your marriage seems to be an unsolvable puzzle, a maze in which you feel lost.--

Keller's description of marriage sounds analogous in some ways to what it's like trying to do something hard for God, hard ministry. (A prophet's role, a missionary's, or perhaps many other roles, although those come to mind as two that are inherently hard, and not just sometimes hard). Certainly hard ministry (pursuing the cross) seems to have the same or higher magnitude of difficulty as what Keller describes of marriage, although the quality of difficulty might be different.

I wonder if, for many people, the most difficult thing they ever do is stay married to someone, and this is because their ministry (or other work) is too easy to be harder than that.

People need some difficulty in their lives, and if you live life on "easy" mode, doing normal, default things, you'll end up in a marriage, which "tastes" easy as you get into it, but gives you more than you bargained for. If you are weird, then your dedication to something other than a spouse may take the place of a marriage in giving you difficulty. Or perhaps your mental or physical illness, or your bad luck with friendship will give you the difficulty that marriage would have. The desert fathers found in their semi-familial lives the difficulty of living with each other.

In Timothy Ware's The Orthodox Church, it says (p. 301 / Sacraments chapter, Marriage section) --The second part of the [Orthodox marriage] service culminates in the ceremony of coronation: on the heads of the bridegroom and bride the priest places crowns, made among the Greeks of leaves and flowers, but among the Russians of silver or gold. This, outward and visible sign of the sacrament, signifies the special grace which the couple receive from the Holy Spirit, before they set out to found a new family or domestic Church. The crowns are crowns of joy, but they are also crowns of martyrdom, since every true marriage involves an immeasurable self-sacrifice on both sides.--

Monasticism could be seen as a flight from the fakeness of dominant-Christian Rome, and from a church that no longer had persecution purifying it. It could be seen as a way to be as true to Jesus as someone being forced to choose between their life and their faith in him. But the Orthodox ceremony says that the death of something, other than physical death (the ego?) is a form of martyrdom.

Is marriage, or monasticism, really the same as being burned at the stake, or being forced to choose whether to be burned or to recant?

Perhaps the intensity is the same, but the quality (I would guess), is not. The monks emphasized more of the physical self-risking, and spiritual self-risking (exposing themselves to demonic attack), but they didn't bring themselves to exactly the same point as the (literal) martyrs, of facing life and death and thus having to have faith that either something was better than life, or that there was a better world than this life, or both. Likewise, in a marriage, no matter how hard things are, what you experience is generally going to be stress and ego-death, and not a facing of physical death.

Martyrdom is a very egotistical act, in a way. You say "I scorn the claims of life on me, and thus claim that I know better than ordinary people who, as simple humans, are afraid of death". Whatever humility leads you to the cross, you made a decision to set yourself apart from the political and/or social order, a decision which with respect to them is galvanizingly arrogant. Perhaps monasticism preserves much of this seeming arrogance, and this self-assertion against the default. But marriage, not so much. That is, if marriage is the default for most adults, and an eminently human thing, then it is less of a stick-in-the-eye to the social order, and if the martyrdom of marriage is ego-death (which is my first guess as to how it is a form of death), then it is about making people humble. Humble, but attached to this life, still, perhaps.

Martyrdom serves multiple purposes, one of which is to defy the political and social order, basically just in that they are the political and social order, and fail to be 100% in tune with God. Another is to set people apart from this life, by enabling them to decisively affirm their faith in God apart from the claims of biological self-preservation, their valuing of doing what is right over all else including their own existence, and/or their trust in God to provide a life other than this life, that God exists and will do this.

Monasticism partially satisfies these, but marriage less so. What the two have in common with literal martyrdom is stress, difficulty, and maybe other things.

Because monasticism and marriage don't provide what martyrdom provides (not exactly), they don't (or at least shouldn't) produce the same results in people. So a church that uses monasticism, and, especially, marriage as substitutes or whatever literal martyrdom provided the early church, will be biased a certain way, and will probably lack some of the strength of the early church, because of that bias.

Thinking less diagnostically and more pragmatically, I think that while real literal martyrdom is hard to come by, and actually dying young is very costly and that cost weighs heavily against experiencing martyrdom, "pursuing the cross" will bias your life in that direction, and perhaps put you in a place where you come closer to making the martyr's choice, in the course of being as effective as you can in serving God. In a world where there is no opportunity for literal martyrdom, if such a world exists, we can lament that it is gone and that we are cut off from its access to the moral and metaphysical truth.

Maybe facing literal martyrdom is required of all of us, and will be something we experience in the Millennium if we have not in this life. If God is the good, then to place him first is required. So then, we must be willing to forsake everything for him, including our physical lives (any life at all, for that matter). Perhaps some people can come to that point of forsaking without an experience of literal martyrdom. Maybe they don't have to go through with it. But to go through with it finishes the decision-making process for those who weren't completely sure they wanted to put God first.

Ego-death does help a person forsake things in order to put God first, so it helps in this "crucial" task. But it doesn't substitute for the cross.

--

p. 24

--Nothing can mature character like marriage.--

How literally does Keller mean this? The immediately preceding sentences: --Studies show that spouses hold one another to greater levels of personal responsibility and self-discipline than friends or other family members can. Just to give one example, single people can spend money unwisely and self-indulgently without anyone to hold them accountable. But married people make each other practice saving, investment, and delayed gratification.--

Does Keller think of "character" in terms of "functional behavior"? Or does he mean it in a broader sense, that includes whether someone is true to God? In this context, the former is a better reading than the latter. But, the latter is an interesting possibility. If it's true that marriage is the best way to build character, then perhaps for many people, the only way to overcome their sinful habits is through marriage. Overcoming your sinful habits is behavioral, but it is linked to whether you are against sin and for God in your heart. Maybe the best way to choose to not behave the wrong way is through being married, and the unmarried are unable to access it.

For Keller, this might not sound like too big a deal, because (I assume) as a Calvinist, he thinks character is not what saves a person from hell. Character is like a very nice thing that we all like and should consider important and our duty to pursue, but ultimately, it has nothing to do with whether we spend eternity with God. But as a New Wine Christian, I am concerned about whether or not people can become completely saved without being married.

I think that if the Bible is authoritative, then it would be weird if marriage was required to complete the process of becoming holy, because in the Resurrection (in the Millennium), there is no marriage or giving in marriage. This life lasts a few decades for us, and if we take Revelation literally, the Millennium lasts 1,000 years. So it would be weird to expect God to only give us this amazing way to become mature, only to some, and only for a few decades. There is probably some other way to mature, which is sufficiently effective.

p. 36

Keller talks about the possibility that young adults are afraid of marriage. --Tierney believes, at least among his New York friends, that there are even more people in this category. Those dreaming of the perfect match are outnumbered by those who don't really want it at all, though perhaps they can't admit it. After all, our culture makes individual freedom, autonomy, and fulfillment the very highest values, and thoughtful people know deep down that any love relationship at all means the loss of all three.--

I think it's reasonable to be afraid of being abused, and individual freedom, autonomy, and fulfillment are things which abusers deny us. To make a god out of freedom, autonomy, and fulfillment is obviously dangerous, but to be controlled by a Satanic torturer and imprisoner (perhaps in extreme cases, a dark human being, or in less extreme cases, a dark relationship dynamic) is not something that God wants us to go through. From a biblical perspective, he led his people out of slavery. And, a bad marriage can be slavery, inhibiting a person's ability to follow God.

For all that Keller talks up marriage as a good thing, I wonder if he will address the possibility of how marriage partners and/or relationship dynamics can be abusive / Satanic, using the institution of marriage.

Does Keller think that the average person need not worry about Satanic relationships? I would guess that many young people have experienced these, whether friends or friendships, romantic partners or relationships, people at work or work environments, similarly with religion and family of origin, and don't feel confident that they can handle those situations. A marriage is a situation which is supposedly "for life", potentially a life sentence to being with a moral monster. Perhaps wise young people (helped by wise older people, perhaps) can tell where the really abusive people are and avoid them. And if you have a sense of flourishing and personal strength, you can face the possibilities of a marriage to someone who can't be considered an obvious abuser evolving into something hellish. But young people have to grow or be strengthened to be able to have the confidence to face the experience which helps them grow and be strengthened to deal with these possibilities. Maybe people delay marriage because it takes many years to develop these capacities of reading people and effectively taking control of relationships so that they do not become Satanic.

"Satanic" is a strong word, and maybe given the way it's loaded, it's the wrong one to use. But I think that it's normal for Satan to deceive us and tempt us, and not unlikely for him to blatantly oppress and torment us. Perhaps Keller's intended audience are people who aren't experiencing the worst of Satanic attack, but only "50% Satanic" situations or "25%" or "10%". There's a spectrum of nightmare, and if you're stuck with a nightmare for years and years, you might quit that job or get a divorce, burned out from the nightmare.

Who would want to get married, if they were afraid of these things? The person you love (do you really love them? or are you faking it? how do you know?) is the person who will turn out to be a monster to you, and you will be a monster to them, and one or both of you won't be able to take it, and you'll have to break the contract, betraying your wedding day and your past selves who got married, and likely betraying someone in the present, whom you still love on some level, or at least are viscerally bound to -- breaking up is bad enough, but divorce is even worse. It may be true that marriage is not always this grim, but there is a decent chance of this happening to you, and do you have a solid reason to think you're in the set of people who make it through to whatever "glorious, hard-fought joy" Keller promises? Do you want to take this horrible risk? Or maybe you would prefer to wait to see how well you can take it when you're a little older.

I'm caught between different intuitions here. My sympathies for civilization say "long-delayed marriage is bad for fertility rates". My sympathies for being a young person, and for personal risk-aversion, say "marriage and romance are not necessarily worth it for everyone". My sense of what is deep down most important spiritually says "No one has to get married, this is not necessary for salvation, don't get too caught up in this life". I guess to avoid the danger of depopulation, I would say "if you want to have a lot of kids, go ahead -- this allows some people to never have kids". I don't see there being any real benefit to not building up young people to deal with Satanic influences, so, however that can be done, that should allow people to develop the confidence to take on marriage.

--

p. 36, further down

Keller quotes C. S. Lewis to the effect that you could lose your salvation if you don't open your heart to someone. Keller says, right before the quote: --But if you avoid marriage simply because you don't want to lose your freedom, that is one of the worst things you can do to your heart. C. S. Lewis put it vividly:[...]--

Giving up your freedom to God is one thing, and giving it up to the institution of marriage, or to a marriage, or perhaps a marriage partner, are different things. Giving up your freedom to God should never shame you or oppress you, and it isn't God at work if you feel some pressure to give up freedom to God that does that. But, any human relationship or institution can abuse you and none of them are worthy of your allegiance, except in a way derivative of God's legitimate claim on you. So Lewis has a point, if what we are really urging is that people love God. But if we use the idea that a closed heart leads to hell to say "so you should get married even if you don't quite feel like it, have reservations/excuses against it" is a subtly dangerous one. There are different instruments for becoming holy, but they are not God, and when we urge them on people as though they are necessary for salvation, we can deceive ourselves and others into thinking that they are the things that save us, rather than it being God who saves us, and that they are the things we need to love and trust, when it is really God whom we must love and trust.

--

p. 45 --In short, the "secret" is not simply the fact of marriage per se. It is the message that what husbands should do for their wives is what Jesus did to bring us into union with himself. And what was that?

Jesus gave himself up for us.--

I like that Keller makes this point. I think that if I were a husband, I would chafe at the thought of my wife nagging me until I "changed" so that I could be a responsible grown-up adult and she could be happy with me for once. That sounds terrible, like being stuck in a fishbowl with another fish who is stuck in the same fishbowl for 40 years. But, if I am Jesus Christ in the fishbowl, and the other fish is Jesus Christ, too, then the fishbowl is fine. To be Jesus is not petty, but to be nagged is petty. A man can aspire to greatness by being Jesus, but not to bowing to pettiness. Even if the self-sacrifice is externally the same, like the man makes the same adjustments to his wife's desires, there is a difference of identity. I gender-type this, but I suppose men can be petty in their own ways and women can be imposed upon in petty ways through men.

I wonder how much of Keller's book would be necessary for young adults who had learned to become like Jesus. I don't mean in the sense of being 100% morally pure, but just having set their aspirations for who to be higher than merely a "Christian", "spouse", "employee", "parent", "regular person in modern society", or whatever, but higher, to "Jesus, the son of God". Not Jesus as "moral paragon" but as "a specific person with his ways of relating to people and God and his own personality, who is a moral paragon". And then to have significantly walked in that aspiration, having received Jesus' spirit. And, as Christians, why are we trying to invest in institutions like marriage, when we should first invest in following our master (that is, becoming like him), which would solve many of our problems with institutions (and with living life in general)?

Maybe my mention of "greatness" above will seem prideful, or connected to pride. I think that children of God should be aware of the danger of pride, and the danger of the word "great", since it has connotations that connect to pride, but also should aspire to greatness, in the sense that we are the children of God, generally the adult children of God, and there is a kind of highbornness to us because of that.

[I'm not sure I like that word "highbornness". Jesus wasn't "great" in the way that Napoleon was great, not exactly. But he wasn't "ungreat" either. He wasn't a "small" person, but some kind of "large" person. As we follow Jesus, we become like him, and become his kind of "large" people.]

Satan wants us to think small, so that we don't dare to fight him. While we are sometimes "our own worst enemies", our real enemy is Satan, and not ourselves. So pride is dangerous, and many attempts to avoid or suppress pride are also dangerous.

--

p. 48 --Marriage is a major vehicle for the gospel's remaking of your heart from the inside out and your life from the ground up.--

Keller allows that there might be other ways with this statement.

--

p. 48 Somewhat incidental to this review, I come upon Keller's signature definition of the Gospel, as I read this book. Here it is: --The gospel is this: We are more sinful and flawed in ourselves than we ever dared believe, yet at the same time we are more loved and accepted in Jesus Christ than we ever dared hope.--

What would I say the gospel is? I could say "what it is according to the New Wine System", but I can't claim to speak for everyone who believes it -- notably, maybe Philip Brown, the developer of it, would disagree with my wording. So I will say, what is the gospel from an MSLN perspective (notably, including the Bible as well as MSL, as can be the case with MSLN). I would say something like: "You are not 100% in tune with God, or at least that's very unlikely and you can't know that you are. You have to be 100% in tune with God someday. And, if you really want to be, you will be. You have a long way to go to being 100% holy, to fully repenting, and you can make it as long as you don't give up. God will help you. If you, in some sense, live the life and death of Jesus, you will make it. There is enough time for you to live that life, but don't take your salvation for granted."

Would people take that as good news? Maybe some would. I did, when I first understood it.

Keller goes on immediately following to say: --This is the only kind of relationship that will really transform us. Love without truth is sentimentality; it supports and affirms us but keeps us in denial about our flaws. Truth without love is harshness; it gives us information but in such a way that we cannot really hear it. God's saving love in Christ, however, is marked by both radical truthfulness about who we are and yet also radical, unconditional commitment to us. The merciful commitment strengthens us to see the truth about ourselves and repent. The conviction and repentance moves us to cling to and rest in God's mercy and grace.--

Is it true that Keller's gospel is the only kind of relationship that will really transform us? I can see it kind of like, "Truth gives us information about how to change ourselves, and you need to not have a block to it. Feeling like you are not loved can make you resist the truth. So you need to not feel like you are not loved. Thus, we need to convince people who are afraid that they are not loved or are not lovable, that in fact there is no possible way that God cannot love them, because he loves unconditionally." That is probably a somewhat unfaithful rendition of Keller's thinking, but it's a way to import it into my own.

For me, truth comes first and in the end can't be adulterated at all. It's true that God loves you and always will, except if you pledge yourself to being his enemy irrevocably. He will mourn you, then, for all time, after you are destroyed for not being someone he can live with. But there is a sense in which God does not love you unconditionally. He can't, if you are the irrevocable enemy of legitimacy, which is him.

This last paragraph is a terrifying thing, or it could be, to some. Perhaps it is useful to God to say "look, for our purposes, just between you and me, as your pastor / teacher, I'm going to tell you something that isn't literally true, through my servant Tim Keller, which is that I love you literally 100% unconditionally, and this will really help you develop and it will be more effective than telling you the harsh or frightening truth of your ability to turn away from me. Someday you're going to have to face that, but not yet."

If you find that idea unsatisfying, then I could use Philip Brown's saying that things can generally be true even if there are exceptions. God loves everyone, generally. But you might be uncertain whether you fit in the category of those whom God will always love. And to be fair, we all should question that, but also proceed with confidence on the path toward holiness, so as to be more likely to arrive.

If none of that is acceptable, then I guess you can just not believe what I say, and you'll do relatively well with some "relaxation" of the truth, like, perhaps, Keller's gospel. But, if I know the truth, I feel a responsibility to say it -- maybe I could be wrong about what is true, could believe something falsely, but I still have a responsibility to say that thing, because that's how I am.

I do think it's fair to say that if you have not made yourself an irrevocable enemy of God (and this is something you would know if you had done), then it's true that God still loves you. And God's love is something more intense, but more importantly, more real and true, than any other possible love. So hopefully you have experienced love that has made you feel secure in its trueness, even a little bit, and you can multiply that greatly to imagine God's love. At least hopefully that image is good enough to help you to hear and respond to the truth that you need.

--

Finished Chapter 1.

Started ch. 2

--

Sidebar: I remember Paul saying that to be single was good because you could focus on pleasing God, while when married you had to focus on pleasing your spouse. ESV says (1 Corinthians 7:32-34): --I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.--

Would it be possible for a marriage to exist that was "anxious to please the Lord"? Perhaps each spouse, and the union of the two, only exists to further God's interests, and to take care of your spouse is only care for one of God's instruments. Your marriage is only valuable as one of God's instruments.

Do marriages start with "I want to help God take care of his instruments." Or rather with "I'm lonely, hungry, weak and need help" or "I have an appealing feeling in me when I think about So-and-so" or something like that?

--

pp. 57 - 58

Keller talks about how if you rely on God to fulfill your emotional needs, then you don't have to rely on your spouse as much, and can be more patient, kind, etc. when they aren't.

This sounds like a basically good way of looking at things to me. However, one potential problem could be that one spouse is not emotionally reliant on the other, or significantly less so, but the other's "everything" is the first spouse. This disparity could create a power dynamic, where the less-reliant person doesn't "need" the more-reliant person, but the more-reliant does "need" the less-reliant (a felt need which psychologically is a need even if strictly speaking each partner could survive without each other). The one who needs more might feel vulnerable, having given themselves over to someone who is not vulnerable to them in return.

I guess one way around this is to make sure both partners are more or less equally secure in themselves (i.e. relying primarily on God for their emotional needs) before marrying. But what if one partner takes the lead in becoming reliant on God after a marriage? I wonder if Keller ever addresses this issue.

--

p. 59 --Seek to serve one another rather than to be happy, and you will find a deeper happiness. Many couples have discovered this wonderful, unlooked-for reality. Why would this be true? It is because marriage is "instituted of God." It was established by the God for whom self-giving love is an essential attribute, and therefore it reflects his nature, particularly as it is revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ.--

However, I think you can be a self-giving person in orientation and still find yourself harmed by the other person in a relationship. For a toy example, consider a case where a self-giving person gets woken up night after night by an inconsiderate partner. The lack of sleep takes its toll, and even if the self-giving person is not offended, is not impatient, or somehow even not irritable, they will have to say something, and if that doesn't work, leave the relationship. I think it's the same way with God, and this explains why we have to overcome all of our sinful habits, sin being that which is like "nails on a chalkboard" to God.

--

pp. 59 - 60 --The word "submit" that Paul uses has its origin in the military, and in Greek it denoted a soldier submitting to an officer. Why? Because when you join the military you lose control over your schedule, over when you can take a holiday, over when you're going to eat, and even over what you eat. To be part of a whole, to become part of a greater unity, you have to surrender your independence.--

You could literally starve to death if you have a bad commanding officer, then. This points to the idea that being part of a whole can sometimes not be worth it.

I feel like my life is largely dictated by something outside my control. It looks like it is in line with God's will, so I tend to assume that it is God. For a person in that situation, is it possible that the normal "become one with your spouse, put yourself second (be flexible)" leading is not reliable? Or maybe it only works if you and your spouse equally obey these dictates from the invisible world. But, perhaps, the dictates only come through you. How can your spouse trust that these really come from God? Again, is there a power dynamic here that is hard to handle?

Is there a way for a marriage to maximize its partners' independence? Or at least to allow for a lot of independence?

--

pp. 60 - 62 Keller talks about woundedness, about how when people come to a marriage, they come from somewhere, which can be abusive. So he (I guess) implicitly affirms that relationships can be abusive.

--

p. 63 --There is the essence of sin, according to the Bible -- living for ourselves, rather than for God and the people around us. This is why Jesus can sum up the entire law -- the entire will of God for our lives -- in two great commands: to love and live for God rather than ourselves and to love and put the needs of others ahead of our own (Matthew 22:37-40).--

This sounds odd to me. Doesn't the Bible say to "love others as yourself"? It doesn't exactly sound altruistic, but rather as though you are one with the other person. Both your needs and theirs are yours. (Well, "love your neighbor as yourself" is ambiguous in English, maybe also in Greek and Hebrew, and has been interpreted in different ways by different people).

Matthew 22:37-40 says (ESV): --And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."-- Maybe my objection ends up being academic (Keller never really wants the reader to not care for themselves, nor to always place others' well-being over their own in every circumstance), but it seems like something he could be missing, given what he wrote right there.

If it is the case that we are commanded to love "our neighbor" as ourselves, and this means to love them as though they are part of us, and "neighbor" includes anyone we come in contact with, then there's something like marriage that we enter into (or should?) with all kinds of people. A marriage (the romantic kind) is a bit less special if a major component of it is something we should extend to everyone (and an overemphasis on marriage or "on our marriage" with all of its intense and worked-for love could take away from the "mini-marriages" we're called to have with each person).

--

Finished ch. 2

Is self the enemy, or is Satan the enemy? Is Satan just another word for self? (No, there are supernatural evil beings who are our enemies, or perhaps one chief among them, named Satan.) Is it possible for self-centeredness to be a problem? Yes, that makes sense. A person could do wrong. But they could also be deceived by Satan. Maybe someone else has written a book about "The Deceiver Versus Your Marriage" and how to avoid believing lies about your spouse, yourself, and your marriage. Maybe Keller, with his Calvinist background, is biased away from the supernatural, out of a kind of cessationism? (I seem to remember that Calvinists tend to be cessationists.)

A lot of relationship difficulties come from seeing a human as your enemy. You might move away from seeing your spouse as your enemy by seeing yourself as your enemy. But then there might be collateral damage to seeing yourself as the enemy. For instance, you get in the habit of not being critical ("who am I to judge?") and this keeps you away from being perceptive and ambitious in changing the status quo for the better. But, neither you nor your spouse may be the enemy, rather, the Enemy may be your enemy.

--

pp. 98 - 100

Keller talks about how some people think that helping people out of duty, without affection, is inauthentic, but he thinks that if you can't help people out of duty, you "cripple your ability to maintain and grow strong love relationships" (p. 100).

I think that there are dangers to doing things out of duty, without affection. If your emotions are contrary to your actions, you will have to pay a cost. It can be depleting. Once depleted, you "crash out" of the relationship, or become resentful. Or you simply lose interest, like Tom Bombadil with the Ring -- you're not the right kind of person to be entrusted with that relationship. People have good reason to be concerned when people help them contrary to the helper's feelings or lack of feelings.

This doesn't take away from Keller's point, but just says that there are dangers both ways, and reasons why people should sometimes not trust people who "inauthentically" help despite their feelings or lack of feelings.

--

Through page 105.

Keller mentions that people can act lovingly, and this can produce feelings of love. So maybe he would say "A danger of being emotionally depleted by feelingless acted love, which leads to burnout and abandonment or some other failure to relate properly? Nonsense." I do appreciate that people manage to be more or less successfully married for a long time and they all have to practice this "act before feeling" thing, and very often it leads to "feelings", but I wonder if there is some kind of survivorship bias, where Keller does know what it takes to produce successful marriages, when success is possible, but gives advice that won't work for everyone. He is a cheerleader for marriage, and it's true that on the whole, marriage is a good thing for society and those who "succeed" at it. But is there any way to get rid of the risk of some people getting trapped in situations where they get burned out emotionally while trying to be married? (Or as mentioned before, get trapped in a really abusive relationship, or one with a really abusive partner?)

I have been the kind of person who is unable to pay the emotional cost of being in abusive and/or sterile relationships. Not that I am unwilling to be in such relationships, but that my body gives out and I have to leave, and seemingly can never go back. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be married? Or I would be at high risk of either divorce or going crazy? Maybe this "marriage" thing as Keller presents it makes more sense for "normal" people, healthy and with "healthy" egos. But mentally ill people are a different class?

Mental illness affects many people, but not the majority (I should check this, but a statistic I remember is, 20% of some population (US?) is mentally ill.)

Maybe there are books like "Marriage for Schizophrenics" or "Marriage for Bipolar People" -- sounds like such things should exist by now. Is there a thoughtful Christian version of them?

--

p. 107 --We tend to size up potential partners as to their assets and deficits.--

This makes a lot of sense if we are exhausted and don't have the energy to pull other people's weight. Maybe God gives us the energy to not be exhausted? I think sometimes he does. But sometimes he doesn't and we are just not high-energy people.

A pastor concerned about marriage in his or her church might try to find ways to deal with people's exhaustion.

--

Finished ch. 3

--

p. 110 - 111 --How could Adam be in a "not good" condition when he was in a perfect world and had, evidently, a perfect relationship with God?--

This in reference to Adam, whose aloneness was said to be "not good" by God in Genesis 2:18).

The MSLN perspective on this is that Adam and God did not have a perfect relationship. Adam had not fully matured to be in tune with God's heart, so while he may have felt good about God, God had painfully mixed feelings about him, and this was not something that God could sustain forever, so something had to change. Based on that, I could go on to speculate that perhaps humans tend to have an inborn difficulty in relating to God, which spiritual maturity ameliorates. So, when we are immature, we need people to perform the roles that God does -- often, God works directly through them as puppets or pawns, but we can trust those faces rather than God's. Therefore Adam needed another human, I guess, a wife.

Keller goes on to say that humans are made for relationship because they are images of the triune God, who always interrelates. But why get married? What about celibate people? Maybe celibate people need other humans? What about hermits? It seems like humans can be satisfied with their "vertical" relationship with God, despite what Keller says (p. 111): --The Genesis narrative is implying that our intense relational capacity, created and given to us by God, was not fulfilled completely by our "vertical" relationship with him. God designed us to need "horizontal" relationships with other human beings.--

The clearest case of humans needing "horizontal" relationships is with small children. So maybe they are necessary when we are immature, and this is by God's design. But it's unfortunate that we can't relate to God directly when we are young, sufficient to not feel like, or really, need the people around us, who can become competitors to God in our hearts, or abuse us.

--

p. 120

Keller says that the purpose of marriage is to help the spouses become their "future glory-selves". This makes a lot of sense from a MSLN perspective, and perhaps we could extend this mission to everything in life. (Brushing your teeth helps you overcome your sinful habits and love God with everything? Maybe -- it's easier to see the mission of holiness in "bigger" things, like friendship, marriage, political structures, education, and so on). I don't know how Keller can make sense of holiness without either God zapping us to become holy (which is impossible on the level of us repenting) or there being time to finish the process after this life. If he thinks us becoming holy is unnecessary for salvation, then probably whatever is necessary for salvation should take its place for the purpose of marriage -- perhaps, helping spouses be more effective evangelists, or keeping each other from falling away, should take precedence.

--

How should spiritual friendship work in MSLN? I don't really know, and I think this is an area where people should adopt the truth of MSLN, think it through themselves, and try to apply those truths in their lives. Maybe if enough people are into MSLN, some sense of what works and what doesn't over many different relationships will emerge. Naively, I don't see why Keller's approach, which is something like (paraphrased from p. 122) "be a fan of how your spouse [or you could apply this to non-spouses] is developing a morally beautiful personality through God's work, and accept them for their flaws" is bad, although the tone with which he writes about it does not reflect the sense of sobriety I would feel (or ought to feel), contemplating the possibility of people turning against God someday (of myself turning against God someday), despite how we are making progress currently.

But maybe I would approach the problem from a different angle and come up with something somewhat different.

If you have a religion that teaches holiness as a life or death thing that is every person's responsibility, then naturally it is tempting for any church built around that to want to control its members so that they are holy. Moral urgency is a temptation to control. Good behavior is valuable, and people should use self-control to "fake it" (to "act before feeling") sometimes. An emphasis on self-control naturally leads to a group that tries to control its members. Serious religion tends to be controlling religion. The more a group wants to be socially enmeshed, the more dangerous seriousness becomes (by this logic, at least). So, perhaps, the way to be serious, to increase seriousness, is to have "libertarian holiness", where a norm of interpersonal libertarianism is enforced. People leave other people in the hands of God, and urge each other to develop "thick" relationships with God, as their relationships with humans "thin" out somewhat. They attempt to respect each other and not do things that will enable Satan to enter into each other's minds (through disrespect, temptation, etc.) They try to be true to God themselves, and by doing so anti-tempt each other, validate each other's love of God.

At the same time, the more serious, the higher the gap between what is socially/officially aspired to, and what many individuals can attain, and thus a greater potential for vulnerability to shame. Thin interpersonal bonds are not always good for keeping people from shame, but redirecting people toward relating to God (who does not shame -- whatever you experience that shames you is not from God), helps with this. People should not feel that they are socially obligated to pursue holiness, they only do so out of love of God, or perhaps because they feel that it in itself saves them from hell -- something they would care about if they were not part of a group that was into it. I think MSLN erases inequality on many levels because no one is really safe -- the people who seem great may actually have lost their "velocity" or have begun to harden over some tiny sin, and the "apparent moral failure" in behavioral terms may have a more trustworthy "velocity".

This is a quick sketch, and as far as I'm able to do right now -- very provisional.

--

Another image of marriage and friendship: two people are committed to relating to God first, and second to working for him. They are held in common by having the same God, and on some level the same work (maybe this works best if they work on the same long-term project or on the same team). Their commitment to the same God reassures them that they will be friends, and so does their commitment to the same work, as it is said that the commitment between two spouses reassures their children.

This seems like a way for monk-like people to become friends, or to have a substitute for a spouse. It could (maybe?) be a model for spiritual friendship within a marriage.

--

pp. 139 - 140

Keller likens marriage to a heavy truck that reveals a bridge's flaws. Then he talks about how when he had thyroid cancer, he was glad the doctor found the tiny lump rather than wishing he hadn't to spare him the trouble of the treatment. p. 140: --That was because the consequences of being "spared all the trouble" would have been, in the end, far more deadly, far more trouble, than finding and treating the cancer while it was small and confined.--

This makes a fair amount of sense from a New Wine (or at least MSLN) perspective -- you risk being destroyed in hell by your sinful habits. But I assume Keller is not a New Wine believer, so why does he think not dealing with character flaws matters? Does he believe it will hurt in the Resurrection for "oblivious, abrasive, independent" people (three of the traits he singles out on p. 138 as things marriage will force you to confront), but that these people will go to heaven anyway? So that means you don't have to do anything about those traits, if you're willing to take your punishment and get through whatever God wants to do to you. You are not required to repent, only to endure.

Is marriage something that is really good in weeding out the little things? When you're stuck with someone, the petty things can come out. Tiny sins are dangerous. Is it better to take out all the tiny sins, or focus more on developing something big, a love of God? I think that the comparative advantage of marriage may be (may sound like, given what I've read in this book far) be an institution that forces you to deal with whatever small sins come out in behavior. But it comes at the cost of forcing you to attend to another human being, possibly (likely) in competition with attending to God. The comparative advantage of celibacy is that it leaves you alone with God more rigorously, and can help you develop a closer reliance on God and love of God. So both celibacy and marriage are dangerous, for different reasons, celibacy by leaving you with your petty character flaws, and marriage by keeping you from fully giving your heart, soul, mind, and strength to God. It's not that marriage has to do this, or celibacy has to keep you from overcoming your petty sins. Keller makes it sound like you should get married so that you can deal with your petty sins, lest you be left "unbeautiful" or whatever he thinks is your bad fate for being sinful. But celibate people are not kept out of the kingdom of heaven, or else Jesus and Paul wouldn't have recommended celibacy. Likewise married people can put God first. But the two life paths are biased the way they are biased.

--

Somehow Keller's presentation of marriage in this chapter so far reminds me of Sartre's No Exit. I think part of it is the idea of being locked in a room with nothing to do except relate. The marriage becoming its own separate universe. Ordinarily, I would tell someone who was stuck in a terrible petty inner world to go find something useful to do. Do marriages do anything useful? Or, since they are entered into to seek personal happiness for the spouses, do they then have to become a personal hell to punish them for that egocentrism and love of ease? That kind of sounds like what Keller's talking about. And Keller seems to think that's fine, part of the process, part of what's so great about marriage. But I wonder, could it be better for married partners to look together outside their marriages? A marriage is a terrible place to confine married people -- this is why divorce and adultery are appealing. But maybe married people can escape being married without any divorce or adultery, but instead by having something more important than them to focus on.

Civilization is increasingly making human labor superfluous. We will (perhaps) solve our problems. Then what? Just the little problems will remain. We will live petty lives, petty sniping, winning petty victories over our flaws. We will perfect prosociality, since the feedback we have to pay attention to will be other humans. The Bible will only exist insofar as it's applied by other humans according to human agendas.

But there is another dimension to life, the "non-petty" one. What would it take to literally die on a cross for the sins of the world? That is what is expected of disciples of Jesus. Can we access that if there's nothing left to do?

[Die on a cross? I think risking your life is more realistic, not necessarily losing it. But there's something in literal death as the thing required, even if we only risk it, that is not there if it's only "dying to self".]

I feel like Keller's program of marriage could turn out very well-rounded, socially acceptable, beautiful people who fail to be able to literally get nailed to a cross and die in anguish, or anything of the same intensity and level of self-giving, commitment, and thinking big. Can a person be saved without losing their life? What kind of spouse would care about such petty things as "obliviousness, independence", or even "abrasiveness" if they had gone through the cross themselves? Two people who have gone through the cross don't need to pick fights with each other. The edge is taken off the sting of their bad habits (whatever practical consequences may still follow).

[I think that obliviousness, independence, and abrasiveness are the sorts of things I wouldn't be worried about in a spouse, but there are things, really evil spirits, that come over people, or which they choose in a childish way, which are worth worrying about and responding to. These things are small, but not petty at all. In Nietzschean terms (putting it in a slogan form): what is evil is beyond good and bad. So a tiny drop of evil is not trifling.]

I guess the awful truth is that we withhold the cross from young people, or even middle-aged people. So they (we) hold onto our fear of death and our lack of commitment to God, and our fruitless taste for happiness apart from God. So then we have to go to hell in our marriages. Marriage doesn't need to be hell, but perhaps it's all we have left in a safe environment, to make us suffer and die -- yet I think that the suffering and dying in a petty marriage might not even really be the same as going to the cross, because to become like Jesus in his life and death is to not be petty, and ego-death (what petty personality reconstruction can offer) and physical death are not the same thing.

--

From an MSLN perspective, one thing to remember in a petty-hell marriage is that as much as you might feel like your partner is your enemy and is the seat of their flaws, and as appealing as it may seem to take responsibility for your flaws when confronted for them, you have to be careful not to take responsibility for things you never chose to have in the first place. And, to remember that Satan is your real enemy, and slanders people. What you have not consciously chosen is not you, and the same goes for your spouse. People are possessed by spirits and tormented by demons. While it is possible for a person to choose to be bad, often bad behavior is not intended.

What are some ways that Satan can benefit from the ways marriage can go? A divorce is a good outcome from his perspective. Adultery is good. Also, getting people to stop loving God and to accept a small-minded view of themselves and life, so that they don't try to change things, they lose their passion, is also a good outcome from his perspective. That way they won't fight him. For people to deeply feel in their bones that they are the problem is a good outcome from Satan's perspective. These aren't really in your best interest, or in your spouse's.

--

What is the New Wine System about? It's about overcoming your sinful habits. But, it's also about overcoming all of your sinful habits. Which is a better predictor of 100% compliance with God, where you are, or where you are headed? Where you are headed, and, that which keeps you headed that way. Does the process of dealing with the annoying flaws and sins of a spouse give them a good "velocity" or "acceleration" (an inborn tendency to move toward God) or does it just move their position one sanded-down flaw or sin at a time? I could see a "Kellerian" marriage going either way. Maybe worked into the process of dealing with sins and flaws is something that is radically theistic, like praying for God to help with the flaws. Do those prayers really lead you to a passionate love of God, and a loyalty to God above all competitors? I suppose they could.

A lack of love for God is as dangerous as the presence of sin. The New Wine System says that there is time for overcoming sinful habits. While that time shouldn't be taken for granted, it's more important to develop the love of God that motivates people to repent, and which is needed in itself, rather than to reshape behavior.

Another New Wine / MSLN note: people's behavior can be driven by their brains, which can be replaced by God in the resurrection which begins the Millennium. Brain work might be useful if a person's behavior is a problem, but doesn't need to be the first priority if you're worried about their soul.

--

Maybe this is unfair of me to expect of Keller, but I wish that his book had been (so far) more about how to love God, and only incidentally about marriage.

--

p. 140 --Marriage by its very nature has the "power of truth" -- the power to show you the truth about who you are.--

I suspect a lot of the time what we think is "who we are" or "who they are" is really more like "what we are" or "what they are". Kellerian marriage could overemphasize "what", claiming it is really "who", and neglect the real "who" issues. I don't think it's good to accept responsibility for problems that don't really come from you -- in some cases that would be to believe Satan.

(Keller may address this on p. 143 when he talks about the distinction between Paul's "I do the things I hate" and "it's not really me doing this, it's sin in me, but rather in my innermost being I delight in the law of God".)

--

Now Keller talks about the power of love in marriage. p. 147: --If all the world says you are ugly, but your spouse says you are beautiful, you feel beautiful. To paraphrase a passage of Scripture, your heart may condemn you, but your spouse's opinion is greater than your heart.--

It's unfortunate that we need spouses to do that and can't get it directly from God. Or maybe we can get it directly from God.

--

pp. 148 - 149

--As Faramir says to Sam Gamgee in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, "The praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards." To be highly esteemed by someone you highly esteem is the greatest thing in the world.

This principle explains why, ultimately, to know that the Lord of the universe loves you is the strongest foundation that any human being can have. A growing awareness of God's love in Christ is the greatest reward. And yet we must not forget Adam in the garden. Though he had a perfect relationship with God, his humanity's relational nature was designed also for human love. Your spouse's love for you and Christ's love work together in your life with powerful interaction.--

This seems wrong on different levels. One is, why are we looking for healing and power? That seems to be what Keller is saying is so great about marriage, and God's love in Christ. Shouldn't we rather ought to be looking to love? Why are we so keen on success and being loved? If that's part of our culture (normalized sense that it's right to want success and love), might this explain how we fail as a culture, because we don't seek to love first, before being loved or winning?

Secondly, if you're going to rely on someone (and you should and have to), on whom should you seek to rely? As a celibate person, I think "no, you don't need a spouse's love for you, God is sufficient". It's probably better to rely on God alone as much as you can. Then he becomes a bigger part of your life.

I believe that many beliefsets are both truths and lies (or deceptive truths), in the sense that for one person to believe them, moves that person closer to the overall truth, but for another person to believe them, they move them away from the overall truth. So perhaps Keller's paragraph (or his whole book) is truth for some, but not for everyone.

--

pp. 160 - 161

--Praying daily with and for each other is a love language that in many ways brings the other love languages together. It means being tenderly affectionate and transparent with each other. And you hear your spouse lifting you up to God for blessing. If you do that every day, or most days, it seasons your entire relationship with the love of God and of one another.--

I like this, insofar as it's a way for spouses to take a backseat to each other as they relate to God, but to still be present as fellows relating to God.

--

p. 166 --How do you get the power of grace? You can't create this power; you can only reflect it to others if you have received it. If you see Jesus dying on the cross for others, forgiving the people who killed him, that can be just a crushing example of forgiving love that you will never be able to live up to. But if instead you see Jesus dying on the cross for you, forgiving you, putting away your sin, that changes everything. He saw your heart to the bottom but loved you to the skies.--

Can't grace just be some kind of spiritual strengthening from God? (This is sort of a Reformed vs. Catholic debate over words.) Then maybe forgiving people on your own cross isn't unattainable at all. Someday you may get to do that yourself. Maybe God wants you to be a moral hero. Do you need to go through the process of receiving forgiveness for your sins in a conscious and emotionally salient way? Or is it fine to just assume that your sins are forgiven, like you assume that there is enough oxygen in the room when you take a breath? Protestantism (esp. some strains that try hard not to be Catholic) problematize or thematize unmerited forgiveness of sins. But from another perspective (somewhat that of existing Christian denominations, maybe, and certainly New Wine / MSLN) forgiveness takes less of a prominent role and what's more important is that you get on the path toward 100% holiness and stay true to it to the end. You're forgiven -- though that wasn't totally easy for God, he could do that unilaterally. The difficult part for him, which goes beyond his power, is watching you, seeing you reject him, perhaps move off the path to holiness, risking your life, perhaps spit in his face and reject him permanently.

Perhaps there are people who need to hear a message of "your problems are solved by meditating on how God unilaterally forgave you". There are many different kinds of people, and some may implicitly get on the path to being 100% and stay on it, or be the kind of people, who, when asked by God, will get on it, simply by the power of their gratitude or encouragement due to the forgiving of their sins. So it doesn't matter in the end for them.

But, for other people, it is not good to only be presented with unilateral forgiveness, perhaps because they want to know the truth (which indicates that overall, salvation is a bilateral process), or because they simply don't get that much out of meditating on God's unilateral forgiveness of them. Maybe they don't truly understand how guilty they are? Well, maybe some preacher can instill in them a sense of guilt. But maybe that's unnecessary. Religions offer a fix to life's fundamental problems, so those problems have to stick around, and maybe religion has to keep making them be a problem to justify itself. I would rather there be a way for people to want to seek God that does not rely on people having to feel inadequate and guilty, whether because the Christianity that results is poisoned with a sense of inadequacy and guilt or the aftereffects of those personality traits, or because there are people who just don't have inadequacy and guilt centers in their brains who can't be Christians if that's the only way to be a Christian.

Is there an MSLN way to forgive your spouse, though? Or is it the case that the best way to forgive your spouse is through the route of inadequacy, guilt, forgiveness, gratitude? I find myself able to forgive people -- not always to trust them, but I don't really want anything bad to happen to the people who have hurt me on account of what they have done. My mind replays old traumas sometimes, but I don't think we should take every instinct of our minds as being reflective of what we really want. Maybe by not trusting them, I am not speaking their love language, and they don't feel loved, and then they think that means I don't forgive them. I have a life to live, in its limitations, and there is work for me to do, and people I need to interact with. It's okay to end relationships and get out of abusive ones and move on. Perhaps in a future life, I will have to confront them. But, it would be for their sake, not for my own, and if they are mature, they don't need my love. I may never need to trust them or interact with them again. And that's okay.

I think I forgive people -- maybe I don't even get offended at people in the first place, but just become traumatized by them and afraid of them. At least once, I've defended myself somewhat desperately from people from the past, but not out of any real concern for what they did in the past. And I'm not really a guilt or inadequacy type of person -- I don't feel those feelings much. So it looks like you don't have to go through the route of inadequacy, guilt, forgiveness, gratitude in order to forgive people who have hurt you. But, since I've never been married, maybe I don't know how hard it really is to forgive a spouse, harder than forgiving seemingly worse people. I would guess, though, that for some people, forgiveness in any context does not require a strong sense of being forgiven.

I think a doctrinal reason to forgive is simply that if you don't, you won't be forgiven. (That comes from Jesus.) If we want a non-biblical but theistic explanation for why we must forgive people, we could say "If you don't forgive someone, you want them to be utterly not accepted because of what they did, so you call justice on them. The problem is that justice requires you to not be accepted either. Justice is not your servant or friend and will turn on you once you invoke it. Unless you want to use pseudo-justice on the people you don't want to forgive, like pretending it's about justice when you just want revenge or a payout. Pseudo-justice is much less demanding than justice but it's a lie, and you're using a lie to justify them being utterly not accepted, which with God in the room means, destroyed in hell. That lie itself merits destruction in hell. So either way, it is dangerous to not forgive." I don't know if there is a more New Wine-specific reason to forgive, but maybe one could say something like "You have to forgive everyone, someday out of your own free will you will forgive everyone, or else you will go to hell, and you don't want to do that, so you'll make it, don't take this process for granted, you have a lot of time but get on it sooner rather than later."

How different is this from Keller's approach? It's certainly different in tone. I feel like moving on from this question right now (just to wrap up this chapter tonight), but maybe I'll catch it again when I review these notes.

--

Finished Chapter 5.

--

Ch. 6

Kathy Keller (main writer of this chapter) notes the possibility of abuse in marriage (p. 190): --Agreeing on gender roles as a foundational part of your marriage takes two people, but what if your spouse persists in a wrong interpretation of his or her role? Wouldn't it just be better to assume the egalitarian, unisex roles that we use in the world as a protection against misuse and outright abuse?--

Her response to that question seems to be something like: "be a servant, because both husbands and wives are called to be servants, just different kinds. Try this unilaterally." I suppose this could be a good response to some abusive marriages, but perhaps not others.

--

Finished ch. 6.

--

Finished ch. 7

--

Finished ch. 8.

--

Finished Epilogue.

--

In the Appendix, Kathy Keller makes another reference to abuse (p. 242) --A wife is not to give her husband unconditional obedience. [her emphasis, used as a header] No human being should give any other human being unconditional obedience. As Peter said, "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). In other words, a wife should not obey or aid a husband in doing things that God forbids, such as selling drugs or physically abusing her. If, for example, he beats her, the "strong help" that a wife should exercise is to love and forgive him in her heart but have him arrested. It is never kind or loving to anyone to make it easy for him or her to do wrong.--

--

Finished Appendix. (Finished the book, except I didn't read most of the notes.)