Showing posts with label church. Show all posts
Showing posts with label church. Show all posts

Thursday, October 12, 2023

Missionary Care for Creatives in Los Angeles; or for others

I wrote a post about cultural altruism hubs. That post, and this one, which is related, discuss a kind of organizational or "scenic" structure or structures that people could build. I don't feel like this is a thing I should pursue, so I'm not looking to try to build those structures myself. But I think the ideas are worth writing up. Maybe someone else will find them useful.

I often write to a secular audience, or to no audience / to myself. But in this case, I write more to a Christian audience.

Creative people are especially susceptible to spiritual attack. Culture war brings out Satan. Some cultural-spiritual warfare is fought by "foot soldiers" (through interpersonal contact). Others through "air support". Airplanes are sophisticated machines. Books, movies, etc. are machines made out of thoughts and images. Culture "flies in the air". So producing cultural artifacts puts new "airplanes" or "drones" in the sky. These artifacts fight each other and fight people on the ground. With good air support, ground troops can have an easier time. So (I think) with good cultural artifacts, interpersonal evangelism and discipleship can go better.

Los Angeles is a center of the movie and music industries, which manufacture cultural artifacts (that part of the "air war"). Those industries are not always kind to the people who try to work in them. Many people have dreams of success in them, but only a few can succeed. There are stories of exploitation in those industries. This can affect everyone who tries to "make it". The overall culture of these industries seems to largely be non-Christian. Christians trying to work in those industries may experience as much exploitation and as many broken dreams of success as non-Christians. They may also experience culture shock and spiritual attack (for instance, being invited to hedonistic parties (something that I would guess happens), or being acculturated to the dominant secular culture to the point of compromising their faith). They may also experience hostility, due to their beliefs.

Are Christian creatives in Los Angeles missionaries? Arguably yes. So they can be supported and cared for like any other kind of missionary. (I recommend reading Serving as Senders Today and The Reentry Team, both by Neal Pirolo, to understand what I have in mind by "support" and "care". Briefly, churches or other sending teams can provide moral support, prayer support, send and receive messages about what's going on in the field, maybe money or logistical support, and help in missionaries transitioning in and out of service.)

Creative missionaries could care for fellow creatives and engage in evangelism and discipleship like any other kind of missionary. But they also "translate the Bible into the native language" of their fellow creatives, by being creative themselves, and/or into the language of the US in general, or even of other parts of the world, where LA culture industries reach.

I feel like if I were a suspicious secular person (perhaps an ex-Christian), an incorporated missionary agency sending financially supported creative missionaries into LA would be disturbing and lead to bad press (if evangelical Christians think that there is an oppressive, militant "other" in the cultural world, so do secular people -- everyone is "David" seeing "Goliath" in each other). Creative people tend to have their own ideas and some might not want to work with a missionary agency themselves. (It's good for creative people to be independent-minded in order to see what other people don't see.) Financially supported missionaries might be harder to relate to by struggling actors, writers, musicians, directors, etc. that they may be trying to reach.

So I think maybe the best way to implement creative missions is to set up structures to care for and support the creative Christians who find themselves in Los Angeles, as though they have sent themselves already, but maybe without enough support.

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Implementation:

I don't know anything about what might already be going on in this area. I can imagine that something like this is already going on.

I think churches in Los Angeles are already doing some of this support and care work. What they might not have is the sense that their creatives are missionaries dealing with spiritual warfare, culture shock, etc., and not know as much as they could of how to be good "senders" and "carers". Perhaps what is needed is to equip those churches.

Also, creatives might not have the sense that they are missionaries on a mission field. They might benefit from additional teaching and encouragement in having a really Christian worldview and practice in their art and life.

Other ideas:
1. Establishing refuge places in Southern California so that people can (affordably) get out of LA to take a break from it.
2. Connecting churches that have creatives to creatives in LA. (Not every church is a good place for a creative person to be.)

Southern California (plus northern Baja California) could be seen as having two areas of strategic significance for cultural people: Tijuana which is a gateway to Latin America and/or to understanding the non-American, non-"developed" world; and the cultural artifact manufacturing center of Los Angeles. In between is San Diego, a quieter place (maybe the military in San Diego is of cultural strategic significance?).

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Caveats:

I have not spent a lot of time in LA. I was involved in a low-budget film production that got actors from LA and have seen the incentives for exploitation and selling yourself in filmmaking. I can sense a certain amount of felt unhappiness and spiritual darkness from Los Angeles filmmaking (Hollywood and I guess "aspiring Hollywood" or indie film productions). I don't have direct experience with the music industry in LA.

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Postscript:

What about film directors? I mentioned them above. They are employers, people in positions of power. But they are at the mercy of their funding sources. Directors have to cobble together funding and employees from various sources, and then work intensely during production, with long pre-production and post-production times. Once finished, they sell their product on the market and hope for critical and financial success, which is uncertain. A lot of money rides on what they do. If they lose too much money, maybe they can't work again. It sounds like a risky, stressful, "disestablished" line of work.

This sounds like perhaps a more intense (or not) version of what entrepreneurs in general go through.

A film director could do the wrong thing because they are under some kind of pressure. Perhaps it is true of any kind of entrepreneur. Or business executive. How much wrongdoing comes from powerful people who are (subjectively or objectively) in insecure positions? Perhaps it would be good to come up with care and support for them.

Maybe if a person doesn't have money, that's their hard limit, and only with additional funding would they be able to do the right thing. (Maybe there could be funding to help them do the right thing?) With better support (prayer, moral, logistic, communication) and the expectation that they can get care if they fail, they might have more courage to do the right thing in marginal cases where they may not really be risking their success, (where perhaps it is some kind of delusion of danger or sin that puts its thumb on the scale of their perception of risk), or even in self-sacrificial cases where they have to sacrifice their success (their business venture/film? / career?) to do the right thing.

(Funding to help do the right thing: a director could develop a relationship with a funding agency that would commit to providing at least a significant part of the director's funding for each of their films, conditional on them doing the right thing and not necessarily on them being commercially successful. In other words, provide grace, or slack, so that directors can fail commercially if they do the right thing on set or in their other operations.)

(Conservative talk radio, to me, sounds like the voice of people who are suspicious and hardworking -- maybe small business owners who could easily go out of business and who have to deal with other insecure people who might cut corners or make untrustworthy deals to survive. Can there be care and support for them?)

Likewise, people in the spiritually dark worlds of the elites. Do Washington, DC churches adequately care for politicians and staffers who fight a culture war of their own? Political theater is part of the "air war" that movies are also involved in. Political decisions and governmental implementations of them have cultural consequences.

(Silicon Valley sounds like a place with its darkness and its own, different culture. What about it?)

People with bad reputations (criminals, prison guards, and police, for instance) may need care and support. It requires discernment how to support someone who has directed their life toward wrongdoing.

Like with creative missionaries in LA, I don't know anything about what might already be going on with care / support for people in these areas.

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The church I grew up in had a sign over the door as you went out, that said "You are now entering the mission field". Probably everyone could see themselves as a missionary, and everyone experiences occupational hazards as they interface with the world. And so everyone could be sent and cared for -- by other people who also could be sent and cared for. Do churches send and care for their own pastors? (Maybe pastors should have some support from outside their own congregations.)

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Everything is powerful, culturally. Everything sends a message. The way you do business as a small business owner affects the overall culture, the sense of how things are and how people act. Similarly with the products a business owner releases on the market. Each one is a movie or book, conditioning people's minds. The caring professions are culturally powerful.

This raises the question: if everyone has cultural power, if each person can say something that has a significant effect on someone (at least on him- or herself), what should you say? Are you the missionary for God and the truth, or for an off-flavor of God and a somewhat misleading truth? You have to seek to know what is true, so that you can correct what is wrong.

This process of self-correction has to go on on a societal level. Society (people within it) must speak against what is believed by society (other people within it). What does it take to oppose a consensus or effective consensus? What if the consensus involves the caring structures that you can find? Who will care for you when you burn out? Will the price of getting care be that you have to stop pointing out what's wrong?

So as much as care and support sound like a good thing, for at least some people, those who would point out what is least popular, it may be good to develop independence from human support and care. A wise society concerned with protecting itself from its own blind spots might try to develop the strength behind that independence in people, and not only promote care and support for people. For a believer in God, deriving strength from God, rather than from people, is a way to be strong enough to say what's unpopular.

It's possible for Christian (church-based) culture to somewhat discourage the individual from seeing things from their own perspective, and instead tries to enmesh them in a social organism. An individual church, and many individual people, will fare better if they are simply in-some-sense-"properly" interrelated socially. But Christianity as a whole suffers if it becomes blind due to its success in orienting individuals toward the points of view of their nearby congregations, which all can potentially be misguided.

Tuesday, September 19, 2023

MSL's Relationship to Christianity

Reading New Wine for the End Times makes me think again about the Bible in more depth. This makes think I should write about MSL's relationship to Christianity.

One way for me to look at this question is to look at myself, as someone with some kind of relationship to both MSL and Christianity.

I was raised in a moderate church, probably "theologically conservative" but moderate in tone. I think I'm reacting to that, and assuming that, a lot of the time. I think the flaws of progressive and conservative Christianity are the flaws of "Los Angeles" while the flaws of moderate Christianity are those of "San Diego". In other words, moderate Christianity seems nicer than the other two and thus is more likely to have a serious but unexamined problem with it. MSL and New Wine Christianity call for excellence, while I think both being basically moderate in other respects. Hopefully that call for excellence makes up for the danger of complacency within moderate belief systems.

I had a significant, highly negative experience with a progressive Christian (this blog comes out of that experience, to some extent). I don't want to assume the worst of all of progressive Christianity because of what I went through, but I can't assume that all progressive Christians are different than the person that caused my negative experience.

Progressive Christianity has an epistemic openness and a willingness to question. I find this aspect of it trustworthy (assuming it is really willing to consider things that are or could be coded "conservative"). What I don't find trustworthy is its emphasis on ethical humanism to the exclusion of ethical theism. Perhaps it sounds good for God to serve humanity, and for humans to serve humanity. Then who serves God? Or are humans the highest end of both God and humans? It sounds like we are making ourselves the center of the universe.

A progressive Christian might look at that last paragraph and think "so you're basically on the side of the conservative Christians". I think conservative Christians (at their best) do try to put God at the center of the universe and not put humans there. But conservative Christianity isn't always good. I think there are (at least) two kinds of conservatives: the kind who like to say "no" to other people, and the kind who value things so much that they try to protect them from other people. "Liberals" (the generous and free) have straightforward human desires. They think (often) that all conservatism is of the "say no to other people" kind, and they feel entitled to their straightforward human desires and think of conservatives as people who are unfair and want power over other people, this power which is proven by their ability to say "no" to them and restrict their straightforward human desires. They (seemingly) do not think that any conservatism is of the "there is something valuable, perhaps delicate, which must be protected from harm". I don't like saying "no" to people, so in that sense, I am a liberal (or, maybe I should say, I am not an "invalidating conservative"). But I also think there are things that are valuable, to be protected from harm, which are not part of what most (or most liberal) people think are "canonical, established straightforward human desires". In that sense I am a "protective" or "sensitive" conservative.

If a man has "straightforward human desires" for a woman, and she says "no", is she invalidating him? Or is she protecting something? He might think that her "sensitivities" (maybe her religion which she calls on to justify her desire to not have sex until marriage?) is a scam when all she really wants is to say "no" to him, to humiliate him and have power over him by keeping him from his natural desires. She has to invalidate him in order to protect herself, but her goal is to protect something, a good or a value which he does not respect. I think it likely that at least some of the time women do try to humiliate men and have power over them. (They really are the "invalidating conservatives".) But often (most of the time?) they are protecting something from the man. (They are really "protective" or "sensitive" conservatives.)

I think that conservatives reading this post would think that they were protective or sensitive conservatives, and generally I would agree with them. The "will-to-invalidate" is also in conservatives, some of the same who are at other times protective or sensitive, others who are only invalidating, with no concern for protecting.

Some progressive Christians might assume that I'm really a front for invalidating conservatism. That's not my intention. But I am not sure that I've made a case in my writing so far which forcefully establishes my actual intention. (Maybe I have, maybe not.) However, I think a truth-seeking progressive Christian should consider the possibility that maybe there is something to protect which they don't already recognize as being worth protecting, which conservative Christians (in this case correctly) think is worth protecting. Maybe my writing is a scam, maybe it's not. If it's not, what then?

A conservative Christian may then think "so you're a conservative Christian, like us". I think that there's something to that. However, I don't believe the Bible is necessarily inerrant. I am not committed to the Bible primarily as my foundation for my faith in God. Nor am I committed to the church (the existing body of people who identify as Christians, or the culture of those people) in the same capacity. This is a radical difference ("radical" as "at the roots") from conservative Christianity as I understand it. Basically, I think that the idea of proving the existence of God through reason (MSL) is the kind of thing that would be undertaken by a rationalistic person, and if successful, would take weight off of the Bible and the church, if they were less reliable than it. So here we see MSL making me "epistemically progressive" or "epistemically liberal", which seemingly disqualifies me from being a conservative Christian (I think it's pretty fair to say it does disqualify me from being what we normally call a conservative Christian).

So far my blog has not had any pushback from conservative Christians, but that may well change. I do not have the mental resources to try to deal with huge texts like the Bible, or with history, or with reams of peoples' arguments one way or the other. (At least not now.) But I will discuss a little bit why I think the way I do about the Bible and the church, and at least if there are objections try to put them on my wiki [January 2024: replaced by this.] so that I (or someone else, perhaps) can address them someday. (My mental exhaustion may be another thing I have more in common with progressive Christians than conservative Christians.)

I can think of one major reason to doubt that everything in the Bible necessarily comes from God, which is that it (even its Jesus (Matthew 24:34)) expected the end of the world to come soon. But it didn't. Maybe we can dig in and say "well, there's a sense in which the world did end" or "the words that make us think Jesus expected it soon can be interpreted differently" or even "God changed his mind because maybe things were going better/worse than he expected". If I were committed to the Bible, I would choose one of those, or some other similar thing, to believe. But if uncommitted, I would think about how the early Christians thought one thing was going to happen, and it didn't, and say "well, there might be some sense in which the words that gave them that expectation are trustworthy, but it might also be the case that they were misguided by expectations that didn't come from God, and maybe the rest of the Bible is a mixture of good guidance and misguidance. Or maybe there are things that Jesus said that are accurately conveyed by the Gospels, but the end-times beliefs weren't among them".

However, I have found the Bible to be very helpful in my own life, trusting it as though it is true, at least as I understood it (i.e., reflecting what parts of it said, as it "plainly" or "naively" appeared to me). I think that the basic project of the Bible is the same as that of MSL, and that MSL is a continuation of it (though some conservative Christians might disagree). This increases my credence that the parts of the Bible that I don't trust might be trustworthy anyway. Sometimes perhaps that causes me to re-evaluate what I don't trust, so that I do trust it, but it does not make me trust everything in the Bible, and I am not certain everything in the Bible is true.

I believe in the Jesus of the spiritual world. The Bible is an introduction to this Jesus, but there is a world in which the spirits live. Occult people "dial up" the spirit of Saturn (the god? the planet? both in one being?) and there is a whole world of spirits, one of whom is Jesus. (The Bible as it lives in our imaginations and memory is the Bible in the imaginal world, which is an access point to the world of spirits.) In my experience, this spirit is to be trusted. But is this spirit 100% the same as the man described in the Bible? I don't know. Does this spirit lend enough credence to the many things in the Bible to validate them all? I wouldn't assume so.

One argument for founding a person's faith on the church is that Christianity has to have a lot to do with the Bible (even progressive Christians seem to care about what the Bible says in some sense). Where did the Bible come from? The individual texts came (it is believed) from the Holy Spirit through human writers. But the church are the ones who canonized the Bible (selected the texts to go in it). We assume that the church was guided by the Holy Spirit when they did that. And the church are the ones who preserved and transmitted the Bible through time. So without the church, there would be no Bible.

Does that mean that we are beholden to the church? What exactly goes into the word "church"? If you don't go to "church", are you a bad Christian, or simply not a Christian? I think the church "wants" (it's a culture more than a conscious individual) you to go to church. Is that what God wants? Is church-centricness a cousin to progressive humanism? (Putting the focus on people rather than God.) Well, if the church is divinely inspired (a presupposition for the Bible to be divinely inspired, we think) then maybe the church is a source of authority in itself and individual Christians must submit to it. But if MSL is valid, then it takes the epistemic burden off of the church. The Bible gains credence because it resembles MSL (a publicly verifiable source of credence) and because its Jesus in some way is the same as the Jesus of the spirit world (a non-publicly verifiable source of credence, unless we all get in conscious contact with that world). The church gains credence to the extent that it is aligned with MSL's God.

Because of my experiences with the spirit world, and the confirmation from MSL, I think I trust in Jesus enough for me to be considered a Christian. But that spirit, and MSL, are the only points on which I'm significantly committed, and the Bible, and the culture that flows from it, I'm not so committed to. Not everything that is socially (or perhaps even Biblically) "church" is in tune with MSL and the Jesus of the spirit world (i.e., instead it takes Satan's side rather than Jesus' side, in Satan's war against God and God's creatures.)

(My example doesn't have to be normative for all people interested in MSL. But I mention it because it's something concrete that I know about, and maybe it provides some guidance.)

So at this point, maybe it seems like I have struck blows for the side of "uncertainty" (a "progressive Christian" thing), so does that leave me really being progressive? I think that uncertainty could lead to a practical liberalism (where we don't know anything, so we default to our natural appetites for guidance), but it could also lead to a practical protective conservatism (where we don't know anything, so we consider the things to protect in every different likely scenario and try to figure out how best to manage the task of protecting things).

So far I've mostly talked from a Christian perspective. But I think that MSL does lend credence (or may; I haven't studied this myself) to non-Christian religions (a progressive Christian thing to say?). I don't think that any religion other than a basically Biblical Christianity (a New Wine Christianity) could be the most compatible with MSL, so the Bible would be most-recommended by it for the purposes of seeking God's preferences (a conservative Christian thing to say?). (But I suppose there might be some obscure religion somewhere that does better. In many ways that obscure religion that I hypothesize would have to be a form of Christianity, but perhaps using different terminology.)

We want to obey God, and so we search for his preferences, for wherever they might be: in reason, nature, and in holy books. We focus first on obeying God in the ways that we are most certain: what MSL recommends. Then, when we have time, we implement the less-certain obediences which are found only in the Bible (or perhaps other holy books). (This motion toward obedience is a typically conservative thing.)

The process of seeking ways to obey God, in the uncertain space of holy books, suggests an intellectual project: To seek what to obey (to come to prefer, act, and trust) from sources that may indicate what God wants -- uncertain obedience. Since we are not sure whether these ideas are from God or not, we consider the possibility that they are not from God, possibly even from Satan. Can we implement these "obediences" to what God may want in such a way that we minimize the damage caused in case they are from Satan, and maximize the good resulting, whether they are from Satan or from God?

(Given this project, why not look everywhere there are old values and revive or preserve them (to undo cultural Moloch), using the same metric of "how do we implement this to maximally serve God and minimally serve Satan?". Perhaps some old values are not compatible with God, but even with them, how much can be salvaged?)

Wednesday, August 23, 2023

Book Review: New Wine for the End Times by Philip Brown

This review is intended to be linked to outside this blog.

The Potential of the New Wine System

The ideas contained in New Wine for the End Times, by Philip Brown (the "New Wine System") have power to help revive the church. There are two basic ideas: we must overcome all our sinful habits (by entering into a relationship of service for the Kingdom, the Holy Spirit removes our sinful habits) in order to go to heaven -- and it's possible not to make it, if we harden ourselves to God's voice; and there is a period of time after this life for us to complete that process.

If we must become completely holy, now we have something to do after conversion. We have something we must do, or else. We must become more trustworthy people (so churches will become less abusive). We must move, and grow (so churches will become less apathetic).

Lay members don't always understand why they need to become more serious followers of Jesus. Lay members who become more serious become like, simply become, leaders in the church. The more leaders, the more the burdens of leadership can be shared, and/or the more can be accomplished. The New Wine System gives people a reason to become more serious followers of Jesus.

There is an idea that Christians have some part to play in saving people from a bad spiritual fate (usually, from hell). This is a nerve-wracking idea to hold if you think people go to hell if they don't make a decision for Jesus in this life. But if there is another one for them to accept Jesus then there's a second chance.

Are people saved by faith? Then they are the ones who must make a decision for Jesus. But what about children who die? The New Wine System has a simple solution -- they can make that decision in the next life.

Are people saved by baptism? If they "slip on the way to the baptistry", are they going to hell? According to the New Wine System, they can be baptized in the next life.

Overall, the idea "needing to get saved" makes more sense under the New Wine System. When things make sense, it's easier to trust them and act on them.

Additionally, Christians should become more trustworthy people, more active in doing good, as defined by the world (in the large area where Christian values and worldly values overlap), if they take to heart the New Wine message. Secular problems (some of them vexing to Christians and non-Christians alike) should be at least somewhat ameliorated by Christians living out the New Wine System. This may make the church look trustworthy to people in the world.

Is the New Wine System true?

New Wine for the End Times tries to show that it is true by considering many of the verses of the Bible that relate. (It is about 600 pages long.) I wish I could say that I know for certain that it is successful in that. But I am not qualified to make that judgment, because I don't have the kind of mind or the interests to be good with comparing the details of Bible interpretations. However, the first time I read it, 10 years ago, I was more into that kind of question. For some years I had accumulated a sense that the verses in the Bible related to salvation didn't all make sense according to any of the existing soteriologies I knew of (Calvinist, Catholic, Churches of Christ, Arminian Baptist), at least in their most basic forms. When I read New Wine for the End Times, I saw that those verses all made sense under the New Wine System.

A few readers of this review may have the sense either that a coherent understanding of the Bible can't be had: either because it's too much cognitive labor for most people, or because the Bible simply isn't coherent as we read it (it may be a collection of human texts that the Holy Spirit uses, it may be something that makes sense in a way we will only understand in heaven, or maybe something else like that). In that case New Wine for the End Times can't be successful in convincing us of its ideas. However, we need to live our lives and how we understand salvation could be life-changing and could help us achieve eternal life (and avoid hell).

As a response to that, as a more philosophically-inclined person, I would say that God is holy, and so he has to be against sin. He can't keep it around forever. We have free will. If we choose sin, we are sinful. If we don't completely reject sin and choose God, God can't have us around forever, so he has to destroy us. It makes sense for him to give us more time than we have in this life to reject sin and choose him, since we generally are not done with that process by the end of this one.

If you found that last paragraph convincing, then I might still recommend reading New Wine for the End Times if you want to see how Philip Brown connects the New Wine ideas to the verses of the Bible.

Other information about New Wine for the End Times

Philip Brown believes that the end times are coming soon, and a significant part of New Wine for the End Times relates the New Wine System to end-times prophecy. His emphasis in the book is on preparing for the return of Jesus, by becoming holy.

I don't have an opinion about when Jesus will return. I'm not sure Brown is right, or that he's wrong. If you do not trust the pursuit of end-times knowledge, the New Wine System is still something worth considering.

New Wine for the End Times is not a perfect book, but it's the best book on a potentially important subject of biblical doctrine.

Friday, July 14, 2023

MSLN and Evangelicalism

I am thinking of posting links to this post on outside sites. If you have come from one of those links, this post is about the New Wine System (a system of Biblical doctrines) developed/discovered by Philip Brown. I last read the comprehensive book on the subject that he wrote, New Wine for the End Times, about 10 years ago (when I was 25) and though it seemed to be convincing to me at the time, I haven't been able to reassess it from my more critical, older-self perspective. I will suggest that it is probably at least as Biblical as Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. doctrinal systems, possibly more so. In other words, it has at least as good a claim as any of those to being what was originally meant by the Biblical writers (or by God in his role as author of the Bible), possibly more so.

Being more philosophical than scholarly, I believe in the New Wine System more through reasoning, this taking up much of my efforts as a writer. My project called "MSLN" attempts to prove the existence of God (one whose nature requires/implies the New Wine System), is more complicated, more of a work in progress. However, I have also written up a simpler argument for the New Wine System which presupposes that the reader believes in God (a certain kind of God that many Christians and possibly some non-Christians would accept as the one they believe in), in an 8 page booklet called Simple New Wine System.

I'm not sure how Philip Brown would summarize the New Wine System (I mention that as some degree of deference to him since the label "New Wine System" originates with him.) I will summarize it as I understand it as being the following two ideas: 1) we must become completely holy (repent 100%, come to have God's values and heart 100%, love God with 100% of our beings, overcome our sinful habits in partnership with God 100%, perform any positive acts that God requires, maybe other things like that) in order to enter heaven (or else we must be destroyed in hell (annihilationism)), 2) there is a realistic amount of time for us to complete our part of this process, in the Millennium/Resurrection.

To some extent this post may be unwelcoming in the sense that I don't discuss it in terms that would make the most sense to someone unfamiliar with my writing. I think that writers try to be trust-producing (so that they have an audience), but sometimes that outstrips their trustworthiness. Someday maybe I will be so confident in the trustworthiness of what I say that I will present what I say in a more popular way. I think I'm moving in that direction, even with this post.

I'm trying not to get into the Bible or Christianity too much at this point in my writing life. However, MSL, the natural theology I do want to talk about, shares many structural similarities with Christianity (and with legitimism (the "L" in "MSL") could be seen as a proto-Christianity or minimalist Christianity).

So this post is trying to talk about "evangelicalism", which is a phenomenon in MSL, but also a phenomenon in Biblical Christianity. So talking about "evangelicalism" is something that serves the purpose of understanding MSL, but also shows how New Wine Christianity might "reform" or "restore" existing Biblical Christianity, perhaps solving some practical problems the church faces, and thus helps me explain the appeal of MSLN to some Christians.

"Evangelicalism", here, is not about cultural affiliation with "Evangelicals", but rather is a basic attitude, which could be something like this:

1. People are at risk for something other than loss of secular life. (Usually, for loss of eternal life.)
2. The way to deal with that risk involves that we care about others' well-being and act on that.
3. There are consequences to our inaction (or misguided action) with respect to #1. (People being lost from eternal life, usually.)
4. We should care about those consequences and feel and act accordingly.

Does MSL commit me to evangelicalism?

Does MSL commit me to evangelicalism? I think so. One interpretation of MSL would imply that if people don't do their part in "anti-tempting" people so that they turn toward God, God can do it in the Millennium. Therefore, under that interpretation, people would not have to care for other people's salvation. I suppose that's possible. But another possibility is that tragedy is possible. God is not so much in control that he can make up for all our deficiencies. This may sound impious, lacking in regard for God. A God who is great should be powerful, right? Who are we to not think God is great? So we must think he is powerful.

But what is the truth? Not everything that happens in this life seems like it comes from God. Maybe it's as simple as, it's not something God wants. (Atheists can provide strong examples of horror and suffering. Jews have had to struggle with the Holocaust as a religious fact, and it should concern us just as it does them.) But if God doesn't want it, then it's possible for things to happen that go against God's plan. My belief is that God always has a plan for everyone's life. But people's choices (whether their own, or other people's) send their lives down different tracks, so that God's first-choice plan ("plan A") gets replaced with his second-place plan ("plan B") or eventually further down the alphabet. And some of those plans that are far from plan A have to involve horror, lies, and suffering, and temptations to despair, delusion, and rejection of God.

What force compels God to allow our lives to become gratuitously bad? God is a holy God, so he can't will us to sin. He is unable to tempt us. But temptations help produce holiness (part of being like God is to turn against sin, ourselves -- so sin has to be presented as a positive thing for us to really strongly do that). Who will tempt us except evil beings? These evil beings then can refuse to work for God in their roles as tempters unless they get concessions, concessions such as a world that contains gratuitous evil. One of these evils might be that God is contractually not allowed to do all of the work he would otherwise do himself (more competently than we would), so we have to do some of it ourselves. Of course, it's good for us to do some of the work, for our own sakes. We anti-tempt ourselves when we care for other people. But there are times when we are not competent in doing our job (or not willing to do it), and there are consequences to that, which fall outside God's desires (and thus are tragic).

While it's always possible that God and Satan negotiate a world where God can do all the anti-tempting necessary, so that if someone rejects him it's 100% their decision, I don't know of any reason from MSL that would make me say I could assume that was the case. So there is uncertainty.

According to this post, God must do everything he can do to save us. Any lack of salvation is due to us, and he must provide us the ideal environment to be saved. So how could God fail to make up for our deficiencies in anti-tempting?

God cares about the salvation of his creatures. In order to have his heart, we must do the same. In order to be saved, we must have his heart. So we must care about the salvation of his creatures to be saved. The best way to do this is through practice.

It may also be the case that the most effective way for us to take this practice seriously is for us to be responsible in some way for others' salvation, in a way that does not get made up by God. After all, nobody makes up for what God does, so God's heart has to face that level of responsibility.

There's a trade-off between the benefit to the worker (who needs to have a reason to take the work seriously) and a risk to the one helped (or who should have been helped, if the worker doesn't do their job). God balances these two, and the result is that to some extent we are responsible for the eternal well-being of other people.

This makes sense to me, and I'm at least provisionally inclined to believe that it simply is the case. But if I want to doubt it, I think I still have to see it as a live possibility.

What is the best way to handle uncertainty? I can think of two natural intuitions. One is to say something like "agnosticism about the existence of God should lead to practical atheism" -- if you can't know about something, assume it doesn't matter. I think this is a fairly common one in culture. But, for people into risk management (some businesses, government, the military, effective altruism), certain uncertain outcomes are worth preparing for or trying to prevent. Practically speaking, if you have a solid-enough idea that God might exist, and of what that would entail, you should act as though God exists (in keeping with how likely you think God might exist), even if you are agnostic.

So which approach should we take, with respect to the possibility that people are needed to produce the best outcome with respect to the salvation of other people? If people aren't needed, and we try anyway, and we do a good job, then there are no downsides. And, if people aren't needed and we try, and do a bad job, whatever mistakes we make will be offset by good decisions God makes in anti-tempting them. (At least, in terms of whether people reach heaven, our mistakes will cause no lasting harm.)

But consider the case where people are needed. If we don't try (or don't do a good job), then there could be tragic consequences.

So I think the natural choice for a believer of MSL is to value evangelicalism. I would say "the natural choice is to live it", and I think most should, but perhaps some could lack competence or good-heartedness to the extent that they might feel it wisest to do nothing evangelical. But, if so they would be doing so for an evangelical cause (by getting out of the way).

What if we are uncertain whether MSL is true or not? To the extent that we think it might not be true, we should consider other goods besides eternal life. But to the extent that we think it probably is true, we should be evangelicals.

What kind of evangelicalism would MSL produce?

Michael Spencer's "Wretched Urgency" talks about evangelical (in the sense I use) church culture that is sort of "crazy". (It's a fleshed-out example from someone who saw that world better than I have.) I would use the term "dishonest" (people forcing themselves to care about things they don't naturally care about). Also, people who are focused heavily on conversions and not the moral life.

Isn't the moral truth that we should save people from hell, and go about it by converting them? But why does that go against what the New Testament seems to exemplify? Spencer makes the point that there isn't much about preaching to the lost in the New Testament. It happens, but the emphasis is more on morality.

The MSLN answer is: if you don't focus on morality, you could be one of the lost. The person you have the greatest chance of reaching to prevent eternal loss is yourself. We know ourselves the best of anyone (although we can sometimes be self-deceived or misguided), and we have the advantage of being able to just obey ourselves when we tell ourselves to repent, with an act of unilateral will. In some sense we can will that other people repent, but also, we are powerless. A mistake that evangelicalism can make is to try to push people to the point of repenting, using pressure and manipulation. MSL and New Wine evangelicals should not do that, and it doesn't make as much sense for them to do so, unlike in some non-New Wine Christianity where it does more so.

In MSLN, while the need and call for holiness is absolute, the time period in which people can pursue holiness is greatly expanded over what we get in secular time. So it doesn't make as much sense to be "wretchedly" urgent. You can dilute your urgency, not to the point that there is none, but you aren't forced into "wretchedness" by the fact of the brevity of secular life -- instead of saying "if this person doesn't change before the end of this life, they will go to hell" you say "if this person doesn't change before the end of this life, that's not the best sign but it's not certain they will go to hell". Because your urgency is diluted, you don't have to drive yourselves and other people as hard in response.

I grew up in a church that in my memory was "practically non-evangelical". This is a term I made up -- "practical non-evangelicalism" (PNE) parallel to "practical atheism". A nominal Christian may really be atheistic in how they prefer, act, and trust ("practically atheistic"), and a nominal evangelical may be non-evangelical in how they prefer, act, and trust. PNE can happen when you have all the doctrinal ingredients necessary to be evangelical, but you just don't derive evangelicalism from them. You might do this by technically still believing in hell and lostness, but just never preaching about it. Maybe the older half of the congregation has memories of the "wretched days", so the Spencer-like preachers emphasize all the things Spencer does (including spiritual maturity, and feeling OK instead of guilty all the time), and the younger half of the congregation, having only heard Spencer-like preachers and not the culture Spencer-like preachers are responding to, again, may have some technical sense that hell exists (it's mentioned in the Bible, after all), but has no real concept that that's a real thing, no concept that people have eternal as opposed to secular well-being, and thus do not care about their own or other people's eternal well-being. It has seemed to me that this sets up two problems: 1) we love people less because less is at stake, 2) we make secular well-being our real concern, and then as soon as the secular world cares for this well-being better than religious people do, religion will have no purpose and die out. #2 matters if there's some reason why God is supposed to matter to us, and we come to know God through people having concern for people (concern in the name of God / religion).

Typically, I like to solve as much of my problems as I can with principles, and avoid laws and practical wisdom. If you can found your thought structure on good basic truths, then everything should follow well. Get your basic truths right, if you possibly can, to save you work in the law-writing and practical wisdom phases. I think it's hard to avoid laws and the need for practical wisdom, though. But with better principles, I think MSLN should do a better job than traditional evangelicalism.

However, traditional evangelicalism isn't totally a failure from an MSL/New Wine perspective. That is, from my natural-theological point of view, it does some good, and probably more good than bad, and even from Spencer's Biblical point of view, it was successful in conveying at least some concern for morality and it did transmit the Bible which he uses to correct "wretched evangelicalism". The messed-up, simplistic version of something might be popular and powerful, at least for a time. I don't think it makes sense to ignore the special genius of "wretched evangelicalism", which is that, though "wretchedly urgent", it actually was urgent. That's not something to dismiss lightly, and it is not good to substitute "wretched urgency" with a "wretched apathy".

What we want is excellence. How do we achieve that? An athlete has to train hard, and even risk injury, in order to be excellent. But, they have to have good technique in order to be excellent. I think that traditional evangelicalism lends itself to bad technique. But being too concerned with health leads to lack of effort. I think MSLN brings better technique in that morality (holiness, spiritual maturity) is part of the goal. You can singlemindedly pursue the goal of salvation of the lost and still attend to morality. That takes care of one of the failure modes of traditional evangelicalism, that "consequentialism" (evangelicalism) "tempts us to sacrifice deontology/virtue ethics" (tempts us to sin, fail to be good, fail to expect goodness from others).

It's possible to associate "spiritual maturity" with healthy living (with secular well-being), such that healthiness (especially mental health) is an inherent part of spiritual maturity. I think it is more dangerous to overemphasize health than to overemphasize effort (because if health is your idol you might not get punished for it like you probably will with effort). But health is a valid concern, and does play into the longevity of a religious movement (if everyone burns out, the movement loses ability to expend effort in the long run). I don't know if I've written about this on this blog, but my belief is that legitimism implies that, since the good is the best thing, we should put the good first, and be willing to sacrifice everything to the good. (Legitimacy is the good, God is the good, and both MSL's "Father" and "Son" persons of Legitimacy (the good) risk their existences in order to conform to Legitimacy. God is self-obedient.) This implies that willingness to pursue "the cross" (risking yourself for the sake of the good) is essential to salvation. We can't let health get in the way of that, and MSLN calls for the cross more clearly than non-New Wine Christianity. But, you pursue the cross attempting not to destroy yourself but to be effective, and effectiveness calls for a concern for health. I don't think MSLN clears up this on the level of principle, occasioning law and/or practical wisdom to make sense of this. (Maybe Jesus' example of only dying on one cross and avoiding all the others is helpful.) (Also "Give to health what is health's and to God what is God's" as in this story)

What MSLN does do is say that if you're pushing too hard, in your pursuit of working for your salvation or others' salvation, and you are starting to burn out, you can say "Well, there's time in the Millennium, so I don't have to make this effect happen now, so I can take a break". But if you're becoming too apathetic, you can say "Wait, there's something real at stake, I need to go to work. Who can say if my work won't help someone escape hell?" MSLN's ideas about how reality is set up allow us to move away from either extreme position of "there is no work to be done for God, only to attend to secular well-being, if that" and "the work for God is so urgent that we need to pursue it dishonestly, insanely, etc.". MSLN is in the middle, motivating work for God without too often leading to "wretched urgency".

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Perhaps, to sum up so far, the problem with evangelicalisms are that they can be unhealthy, dishonest, immoral, "wretched", and thus be counterproductive.

A traditional evangelical could keep their "heaven or hell when you die" perspective and say "while it looks as though there is an intense, burning urgency to help people find God, what actually works to achieve that is to not think about that or in those terms, otherwise you become unhealthy, dishonest, immoral, 'wretched', etc.". In other words, things are "not what they say on the tin". You might naively think that you should care about other people and feel the feelings, think the thoughts, etc., that go along with their objective state, and then act on those feelings/thoughts. But actually, you shouldn't care about other people, nor feel those feelings, think those thoughts. Actually, to "really" care about other people is like not caring. Caring is "not what it says on the tin".

When I admired traditional evangelicalism's possession of urgency earlier (even if it might be "wretched"), part of what I thought was good was the way that urgency gets us to actually do things. The doing of things follows from objective reality. Just to see someone as lost gives you a power and direction to do something. Their lostness is a moral truth. How will you respond to that truth? If you don't respond to moral truth, what kind of person are you? Probably someone lacking in moral sensitivity -- having a heart unlike God's.

Perhaps in some grim world the best we can do is live the paradox. Maybe the paradox lurks in non-New Wine evangelicalism (at least all the non-"wretched" varieties), and the best we can do is be paradoxical.

With MSLN, you don't need to distance yourself from the objective fact of someone else's lostness in order to relate to it in a healthy, honest, moral, non-"wretched" way. So then the "MSLian" or New Wine Christian can better maintain their connection to the fact of lostness. They can trust the category of "objective truth" more. They can derive strength from the truth in a way that a paradox-minded person can't. They can be more passionate, and thus will probably be more fruitful than they would have been as "paradoxical traditional evangelicals" or "practical non-evangelicals".

This assumes that MSLN (a set of ideas) is well-implemented by the people who adopt it. And like anything, it might not be well-implemented if its adherents do a bad-enough job. But MSLN itself isn't starting them off at as much of a disadvantage as the other views do.

Can MSL evangelicalism be trusted by traditional evangelicals?

This post is written at least in part so that non-New Wine evangelicals might consider New Wine evangelicalism. One question such people might have is "We think that what matters is that people make a decision for Jesus -- that they are converted. Could the New Wine System be a scam that gets us to no longer emphasize that thing, which we have always thought mattered? What if we mistakenly believe the New Wine System, although it is false, and fail to do work we should have done, and people go to hell who otherwise would not have?"

I do think that being concerned about intellectual scams is valid, and that a change in the beliefs that affect what you consider highest is one to make carefully and aware of the risk. A New Wine person like myself, considering traditional evangelicalism's arguments if they were presented to me, might feel like they are a scam, to get me to give up my concern over holiness's role in salvation. Traditional evangelicalism at its worst produces shallow believers who think they are 100% OK in the eyes of God (effectively -- they know "they are sinners" but don't think being a sinner is really a bad thing since they are guaranteed to go to heaven). In this regime of moral shallowness, people can harden on little sins that they like, and in some areas become deaf to the voice of Jesus. So traditional evangelicalism, when it succeeds at what it thinks is sufficient to save people, could bias some people toward choosing hell, if in fact New Wine evangelicalism is correct. Both evangelicalisms are potential scams, depending on your perspective.

How can you choose between two potential scams? (Especially when, in this area, all the alternatives are potential scams, things that if you adopt them might cause you to take focus off of what really matters.)

How much are New Wine and traditional evangelicalism in tension, practically speaking? Maybe in practice they achieve the same ends, more or less.

Conversion matters to a New Wine person because it enables people to point themselves in a better direction with respect to God. It's part of holiness as I understand it. Can you reach God without a conscious trusting relationship to him? No. Likewise traditional evangelicals (despite "wretchedness") still teach holiness.

It's true that MSL doesn't require a person to trust in Jesus by that name. In some languages, Jesus is known as "Yeshua" or "Isa", not "Jesus", so it's not the string of letters that is essential to the name of Jesus, but rather some minimal set of traits in the person associated with that name, that makes the name really the name of Jesus. MSL does require trust in Legitimacy/the good/God in multiple persons, does require that that God take on the form of a limited personal being such as we are and die, and I think (although I'd have to check), most of what Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount (one exception being his call to keep the Law) are implied by MSL. I think if you want to implement the idea of a good God, and a good God in human form, according to MSL's view of God and goodness, you might well recreate many or most of the sets of traits of Jesus, when looking at the person of Legitimacy who takes on limited form, such that it makes sense to give that person the name of Jesus. However, not having spelled out all of the essential traits of Jesus, nor of all the implications of MSL, I can't say that MSL preaches Jesus, exactly. If it doesn't, it gets people relatively close to trust in Jesus, but that might not be close enough for the comfort of some traditional evangelicals.

(If the name "Jesus" or something etymologically similar is one of the minimal essential traits that identify Jesus, then MSLians could easily use that name to refer to the person of Legitimacy that resembles the Biblical Jesus. I've used "the Son" before in MSL contexts, which might also be adequate. I suppose this is only a fair thing to do if we can identify the other minimal essential traits of the Biblical Jesus as well as the full MSL conception of its "Son", and the two line up sufficiently that they refer to the same being.)

However, New Wine Christianity (as opposed to the MSL natural theology) holds Jesus as high as any other kind of Christianity. Evangelical Christians do not need to convert to MSL, but rather to New Wine Christianity, if they find the ideas held in common between MSL and the New Wine System convincing.

Yet they still might be concerned about the existence of MSL. Could MSL be leading people astray, to 99% of what it takes to be saved (having an understanding of the limited person of God that almost amounts to the Jesus that is the way, truth, and life), but stop them before going 100% (really believing in Jesus)? From one perspective, we could say "well, among all the not-100% versions of the truth that are out there, this one is better than most". But I'm sensitive to concerns about coming up with something that is 99% right and therefore highly trust-producing but which is fatal by not going the full distance. I think (I hope I've said this before and say it later by way of emphasis) that MSL naturally calls us to say "we don't know everything that we might need to know about God and we're listening to hear the answer". An MSLian certainly should listen to a traditional evangelical talk about Jesus, and I think naturally would welcome hearing about their ideas and considering adopting them. Why not become a Christian, at least in some minimal sense? Hopefully that (if put into practice as much as it should be) would reduce the danger of MSLians not hearing the truth about Jesus that traditional evangelicals possess. I don't think the world (in this life, at least) is ever completely safe, nor is any state of affairs not at all apt for concern. The traditional evangelical must consider the danger that they are wrong and MSL is right, just as the MSLian should consider the danger that they are wrong and traditional evangelicalism is right.

What if the New Wine System causes us to not be as concerned with converting non-believers, given that they can be converted in the next life (according to the New Wine System), and we miss opportunities to convert them in this life which is all we get for this task (according to traditional evangelicalism)? This is a fair concern, and I can see a real risk here. One way to resolve the tension is epistemic. If the truth says the danger is "here" and not "there", then that settles what to do. (Though I'm trying to talk about risk management in this section, ultimately you should believe what's true rather than focusing on trying to be safe.) I think the New Wine System is favored by the truth, but the reader should make up their own mind.

It may be the case that the New Wine System is more effective at producing conversions than traditional evangelicalism. Traditional evangelical conversionism is something I would expect to produce a strong feeling at one point in life which may or may not lead to a lifelong commitment. It's a good way to increase a church's size in the short run. But what kind of people become leaders in a church?

What if churches were full of people who were leaders, who were examples of people living like there's something other than human flourishing that matters or in some other way were deeply and genuinely living like God exists, and who were deeply and genuinely concerned about their neighbors' spiritual lives (that they aim toward the person of God consciously, and that they come into tune with God morally even if they sometimes do that unconscious of the person of God). The New Wine System might be expected to increase congregants' seriousness as Christians at the same time as it decreased (but not to zero) their emphasis on having to convert people in this life. Possibly more people would become the kind of people who could convert others, by increasing their own trustworthiness through the pursuit of holiness, and by taking their faith seriously enough to love and reach out to the people who don't have it, even if their individual urgency to convert decreased. It could be the case that the New Wine System would perform well from a conversionist point of view (although that remains to be seen).

Another perspective is that the church universal is an ecosystem. Traditional evangelicals are effective at conversionism, but they sometimes are "wretched". People who are converted by traditional evangelicalism but don't do well in traditional evangelical churches leave -- perhaps they leave Christianity entirely. Or perhaps they go to a PNE, liberal/mainline, progressive, Catholic, or Orthodox church (maybe even fundamentalism would sound better than traditional evangelicalism to some). Each of these variants of Christianity provide homes that people might like to stay in -- they are not all in line with the truth (they couldn't all be since they differ from each other doctrinally), but they serve a purpose.

The existence of New Wine doctrine allows PNE, and possibly also liberal/mainline and progressive Christianity to move in a more evangelical direction -- and thus as a byproduct produce more conversions. The New Wine System is more congruent with PNE (and maybe some liberal/mainline and progressive) Christian cultures, would be more fitting for the kind of people attending there.

From this, a committed traditional evangelical might look on the New Wine System as being among a number of doctrines that are not completely valid, but not the worst of them. And possibly also as a less-risky thing to consider believing and recommending to others.

Some editing issues explain the redundancy of the following paragraph:

That goes for New Wine Christianity. But MSL might sound risky, still, if it does not insist on the name of Jesus. I think that the exact same belief can move one person closer to the truth, and another person further. It's possible for MSL to move people from atheism and non-Christian spirituality toward theism, and while MSL does not force people to accept the Bible logically, it does recommend the Bible to some extent, I think. (I haven't done all the thinking that I feel I should on this subject, but on the surface, because MSL sounds like a proto-Christianity or minimalist Christianity, it makes Christian scriptures seem like they might be from God. And, as I said before, an MSLian should have the sense that they may not know enough about God.) Depending on how things turn out, this could lead non-Christians to become Christians who otherwise wouldn't have, although the risk remains that some people would think that the name of Jesus wasn't necessary for salvation, given that an intermediate step in becoming a Christian did not insist on that.

Maybe practically speaking, we should seek to prefer, act, and trust according to both MSL and traditional evangelicalism (should both aim for complete holiness and seek to convert and be converted). If those were the only two versions of the purported truth out there, I think it would be easy for me to try to satisfy both personally, and emphasize both in my behavior to other people. I feel like MSL "has nothing against" conversion, and traditional evangelicalism "has nothing against" holiness. I personally find MSL and the Bible the only options I'm interested in obeying, and so that doesn't seem like a huge leap to me, and perhaps the reader is in the same situation. Then, neither belief system is practically speaking risky from the other's perspective.

But, if I'm trying to be openminded, I consider the possibility of views like Islam, or "Christianity+" religions like Roman Catholicism and Mormonism. Do I have to satisfy Muslim doctrine? I think MSL rules out Islam's insistence on its version of the oneness of God (this is not my official opinion, but seems like a safe guess about the Islam I've heard of). I can't satisfy both Islam and Christianity at the same time. But could I satisfy Catholic or Mormon Christianity along with the Christianity of the 66 book canon I grew up with? I don't know. What if there was some little sect of Christianity, 200 members strong, in some obscure part of the world, that taught that salvation requires a certain kind of faith in God, the real faith that died out in the first century, a specific kind of faith that they know about, and this is the only way to avoid hell? So I have to have their kind of faith? What if it conflicts with MSL and traditional evangelical faith? Can I know that such a sect does not exist and that they are not right? Sure, they are small and thus I might claim are insignificant, but the church was small in the first century.

Is it easy to know the truth, and know that you know the truth, sufficient to prefer, act, and trust so that you are saved? Maybe not. If not, and God exists, and God loves you, and God wants to achieve what satisfies his desires, wouldn't he provide you a way to come to know whatever truth is needed for salvation, whether in this life or a later one? This is essentially an argument against traditional evangelicalism and for something like MSL. This doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what we believe in this life, but that the significance of, what kind of beliefs we believe in this life, is diluted by the provision of God for an afterlife where hopefully the epistemic environment for our trusting of God is more favorable. (If it's useful in saving us, I think we will be given clarity someday.)

Are traditional evangelicals more afraid of hell than they believe that God exists, loves us, and wants to achieve what satisfies his desires? If so, then it makes sense to be suspicious of MSL and the New Wine System. Otherwise, no.

What about "dark evangelicalism"?

This section is somewhat of a footnote or note to myself, not as well-thought-out, and weirder.

Someone could object that maybe God is not ultimately in control enough of the process of salvation, such that he can't guarantee a clearing-up of salvation doctrine later. This does not sound like traditional evangelicalism, whose God is simply omnipotent. But one could imagine a dark evangelicalism, where people need to hear about God in this life to be saved, and God is powerless to give them a second chance.

God really loves, and God doesn't want any of us to be lost. He doesn't create any of us to go to hell. God would not create us if he knew that there was a chance any of us were bound for hell at the time of creation, which would be the case if he didn't provide a way for us to be saved (like an afterlife where we could hear the truth adequately). We might end up going to hell, through the mishaps of life and our turning away from him, but to not provide something like the Millennium would be an unforced error on his part.

So now the "dark evangelical" has to claim that God is not fully or sufficiently loving. But this contradicts the Bible. The Bible says (1 John 4:8) that "God is love". If God was not fully loving, love itself would not be fully loving. Or, if "God is love" is a figure of speech for "God is loving", the love that we have comes from God (1 John 4:7), so we can't exceed God in being loving. And I would assume we can't exceed God in practical wisdom. (Although maybe a "dark evangelical" would contest that? I think creating the world would require a lot more practical wisdom than living one human life.) So if a human can figure out that it doesn't make sense to make an unforced error that prevents people from going to heaven, and doesn't do it out of love, God would also be able to figure that out, and wouldn't do it. So the Bible does not give support to the idea that God is insufficiently loving to avoid "dark evangelicalism".

A traditional evangelical (we will say) believes in "sola scriptura" and so would reject the dark position for being unbiblical. But an "MSLian" might take the dark evangelical position seriously. Is there evidence for dark evangelicalism?

Possibly some can be found in MSLN itself, at least in the first two arguments (the Metaphysical Organism (M) and simantism) (S). The idea that God has to be fully loving is developed in legitimism (L), where love is a form of value, everything that exists is at least temporarily legitimate, Legitimacy has to value what is deserving, everything that is legitimate is deserving, and so everything that is not illegitimate (something like "sinful") is something that Legitimacy must value/love/will-to-exist-forever. But if a student of MSLN does not accept L but only M or MS (S implies M), would they have any reason to think that God is loving, sufficient that he would have to be competent in choosing whether to create us?

The Metaphysical Organism, and by extension the Speaker, is a being of perfect empathy. They feel exactly what we feel. While I don't know how to measure how much unbearable pain there is in our world, I think there is a lot of it, probably unrelenting for thousands (or perhaps millions?) of years. The Metaphysical Organism/Speaker would likely understand this long duration, unrelentingness -- perhaps understand after a few weeks of the load of pain, and then think "is it worth going on?" If they decided to, it would be an action of love, tested over the years by the constant or near-constant barrage of qualia of unbearability. They would show their value for creation by the pain they were willing to bear for us. So the pain and tragedy of creation gives us a reason to think they love us enough to not create if things were going to be really hopeless.

Under M or MS, why would the MO/Speaker need us to accept Jesus as our savior? I don't know of a reason off the top of my head. Why would they require any particular thing for salvation? I can understand them not being able to keep us around if we insist on doing unbearable things or being unbearable to them. But otherwise, why would we have to do any particular thing, like make a decision for Jesus? In MSL, it makes some sense because part of being legitimate is to trust/follow Legitimacy and if Jesus is who he says he is, he is part of Legitimacy. Accepting someone like Jesus is part of MSL. But it's not as clearly a part of M or MS.

A reason why the Speaker could be known to love us is because he created the simantic word of "love", and so understands it deeply himself. Thus, if we can apprehend it and participate in it, we know what he knows. If we know that love is greater than its competitors, he knows that, and will see love as we do, so that he will only create if there is a chance for each of us to be saved. (He know sadism (for instance) as well, but perhaps if you understand love and sadism perfectly, you will always automatically choose love as the best, and sadism as not measuring up.)

--

People think they have experiences of God. Probably they do sometimes, if it's sufficiently possible that God exists. Is God loving? I think for most people (maybe even in different religions?) he is. God is supposed to be trustworthy, and somehow he tells us he is. Not everyone experiences him this way necessarily, but I would guess it's the majority view and maybe that should count for some kind of evidence.

Maybe we could view religious experience as experience with spirits (some of whom claim to be God, or working for God), as opposed to with God. If the spirits are trustworthy (we know from relating to them), maybe if they tell us that God is loving, we should believe them?

--

If something claims our practical attention (our trust and/or obedience), if the credence we can give it is below a certain amount, it's as likely as so many other conflicting things that it's not worth worrying about. Can dark evangelicalism rise above that threshold? It's an open question. Can it be deemed likely enough, and also recommend a clear-enough course of action, that we can trust and/or obey it?

Thursday, September 22, 2022

Book Review: Along the Way, ed. Ron Bruner and Dana Kennamer Pemberton

See also the preview for this review.

Instead of writing a full review of Along the Way, here are my notes.

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Along the Way notes

The authors of Along the Way are:
Ch. 1 -- Ron Bruner and Dana Pemberton
Ch. 2 -- Ron Bruner
Ch. 3 -- Steven Bonner
Ch. 4 -- Ron Bruner
Ch. 5 -- Samjung Kang-Hamilton
Ch. 6 -- Samjung Kang-Hamilton
Ch. 7 -- Holly Catterton Allen
Ch. 8 -- Nathan Pickard
Ch. 9 -- Jeff W. Childers
Ch. 10 -- Jeff W. Childers
Ch. 11 -- Ryan Maloney
Ch. 12 -- Dana Kennamer Pemberton
Ch. 13 -- Suzetta Nutt
Ch. 14 -- Shannon Rains
Ch. 15 -- Dana Kennamer Pemberton

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Finished chapter 1.

--

Finished chapter 2.

--

Chapter two talks about the history of the Stone-Campbell Movement's "theology of children". Infant baptism is rejected as unbiblical, while an equally unbiblical "age of accountability" is added to explain how it is that unbaptized children who die do not go to hell (having not yet attained a certain age at which they are morally developed enough to be accountable). Those views are familiar to me from having grown up in a Church of Christ. One which is unfamiliar is a logical corrolary (although maybe not a necessary one) that [unbaptized] children are not part of the kingdom of God. Also, there are newer views which seem somewhat consonant with what I grew up with, that children are on a faith journey.

Baptism is important for salvation in the Churches of Christ -- it's essential. It may be essential for salvation in MSLN as well, or it may not be. (Because it may be, it is important.) It makes sense for it to be seen as a weighty thing connected to salvation, and thus a significant rite of passage for young people (or anyone). However, [in MSLN], children who die unbaptized are not (from that) destined to lose their salvation. So it makes sense to see them as being in relationship with God, in a sense in good standing with God (thus on a faith journey, and part of the kingdom of God).

That chapter didn't discuss child evangelism. Maybe the book will discuss it later. In case it does not, I will discuss it now.

How should adults evangelize children, given MSLN? I'm not completely sure, but my instinct at this point is to say that adults should practice "urgent libertarian holiness", desiring that their children be saved (come into a relationship with God that persists to the point that they are 100% holy) but not force them to see that in any way. Don't do anything manipulative or dishonest in teaching your children about God. Better to simply be as saved as you want them to be, and in that way anti-tempt them. But the spirit with which you relate to them (and anyone or else) should be urgent, and desirous of their salvation.

However, one aspect of salvation in MSLN is coming to love doing good, which spills over into good behavior. Should an MSLN-believing parent refrain from enforcing good behavior, since it might coerce the love of good, which is part of salvation? Unfortunately, a certain amount of coercion or coercion-adjacent behavior may be needed, not for the child's salvation, but because good behavior is necessary for children to succeed socially, or for the child to be responsible enough to take care of him- or herself, or for some other significant practical reason. These are things that enable children to make the most of their life on earth.

Children need to learn to love doing what is right for its own sake, not because it's socially rewarded or pragmatic. This is part of loving things the way God does. But that lesson has to be learned later in life, I guess.

[Maybe to some extent it can be learned in childhood, even if you can't always intentionally set up the circumstances where they have effective freedom of choice between better and worse, or can't guide children to make exactly the right choice. There's a reality that is best learned in wild places, and children can enter into some of the wild places.]

If you want to raise your children in the faith in a libertarian way, perhaps you are safe if you simply speak the truth, intending only to speak it, and not to enforce it or make it be heard or understood. Children can be exposed to much more truth in this way than if they are forced to engage with it or make a decision based on it. For instance, reading the Bible aloud to children [with no expectation of a response or even that the children necessarily listen to any given part] exposes them to much more truth than is age-appropriate or necessary for them -- but some of them may benefit from parts a parent couldn't have predicted were beneficial (the child might be ready for them sooner than the parent realizes). Children have a way of filtering out things they are not ready to hear. Pushing children to hear things might work, but be controlling or too forceful.

I will say that I was raised by a basically libertarian parenting with respect to faith. So it is an obvious thing for me to reach for as I try to think of things to recommend (and, I am biased toward it). However, I can say that I see the benefits of it. Libertarian, or libertarian-leaning parenting (in my experience) can have its downsides, for instance in preparing a person to deal with responsiblity or the social world. But, in my experience, it encourages a person to develop their own faith and their own relationship with God. I suppose those upsides and downsides are what I would expect from a disestablished thing.

--

I can hear a pro-child evangelism person saying something like: It's important that we evangelize children in some other way than neutrally presenting the truth and being saved ourselves, because, even if it is the case that we persuade them to follow God for fake reasons, or out of some kind of social obligation, or for pragmatic reasons, or in some way other than that they love God for who he is -- though all this may sound less than really good, and require some kind of correction later in life, what's important is to keep them out of even worse things: temporal (drugs, gangs, premarital sex, dropping out of school) or spiritual (other religions, worldviews, simply not having a part of their brain that naturally responds to the word "God").

I can see some merit to those objections. Maybe it is the case, as with other things in life, that the lesser of two evils is better than the greater, and if those are your only two options, you should choose the lesser. But, I think that if it is at all possible to address the spiritual dangers of not evangelizing children by evangelizing them with simply presenting the truth and being saved ourselves (or perhaps something else that goes with that approach), that should be the way to go. It should be something that child evangelists think about, as a possible alternative to more manipulative or fake approaches.

I talk about anti-temptation. Is anti-temptation simply the temptation to do what is right or to love God? Like with Buber (who claims something like that we don't relate to God the same way we relate to an idol, and so we can't simply replace the object of relating or worship with God, without changing the character of it), so anti-temptation is of a different character than temptation. Temptation is about addicting and forcing, and also about taking power over someone else's mind. Temptation is about knowing someone's nature and predicting them. So anti-temptation is not about exerting psychological power on people, and not about figuring them out, knowing their psychological vulnerabilities better than they do.

Perhaps it is the case that a somewhat "tempting" child evangelism is more effective in the short run, creating a first approximation of love of God which is necessarily immature, because children are immature. Then, when children grow older, that first approximation can be corrected.

Does it get corrected? Or do people go through life with a basically immature relationship to God? How do you explain to a 30 year old that their relationship to God and life in general is immature? What about a 50 year old? There comes an age at which we feel like we are mature, and just like children, come to be unable to comprehend certain sentences, such as "you are a functioning, perhaps even psychologically healthy and well-adjusted adult, but you are deeply spiritually immature".

Probably it does get corrected in some cases, and not in others.

Some people believe in child immaturity more than is warranted. I first attended a public school that mostly had low-income students, up to grade 5. The school was a charter school with some history, and it had things like Orff-Schulwerk (or Orff-Schulwerk inspired) music education and "families" (a weekly class with the same teacher over the whole elementary school education, with students of different grade levels in each "families" class). So it had some affinity with Waldorf education or things like that. There was (perhaps therefore) a kind of generosity and respect from the teachers.

Low-income students have to go on to deal with life in a real way. Teachers who see children with generosity and respect treat (treated) those children as though they were significant and to be expected to be mature. They couldn't afford to be immature.

I remember some of the students in a grade higher than mine were more mature than me, and I still somehow expect them to be more mature than me, and always so. Even maybe those 5th graders [at that age] that I knew when I was in 4th grade [they are somehow still more mature than me now] -- there are dimensions to maturity that some children possess but which adults sometimes do not.

But then I graduated and started attending an elementary school that went to the 6th grade, part of a private Christian school system that I attended until 12th grade. At my previous school, it was like we were seen as having our roots in the future as full adults. But at my new school, it was like we were seen as having our roots in some innocent, cute past -- when we were five years old, perhaps. This may have been exacerbated by the teacher I had, who perhaps was inclined to look down on us and infantilize us, in a way that other teachers at the school may not have been. I (and a number of my classmates) did not like her, and going to 7th grade, with many teachers, was a breath of fresh air.

But though none of the other teachers were as intensely anti-maturity as her, it seemed like even the more "real" or serious ones either could not see the possibility of a Christian school that carried on the maturity of my public school, or could but were stuck in the environment they were in, which was more powerful than them.

Certainly class had something to do with it, comparing expectations one would have for low-income people versus middle-class as most of the private school students were. I don't want to say that secular schooling is really better for people's maturity than Christian schooling, although I do think my particular secular elementary school was better than my Christian education. (I think secular schooling could fail to really communicate the need for maturity to their students, even though the teachers would well be aware of that need -- a problem of too much despair, perhaps, rather than of too little facing "reality" / dark things.) But I think that perhaps an emphasis on "you are a child of God" makes you think "I need to be a child; I need to be a child my whole life; I need to be childlike my whole life; it is better for me to have the sins of childhood my whole life than the sins of adulthood" and to have a sense that someone will take care of you -- God, but you don't really believe in God for yourself necessarily, so if you don't, then the church, or some other human or group of humans. Then, church leadership becomes unhappy that their "children" don't become "adults" like them and help them work. So the church leadership overworks and takes too much control. (A pattern I have seen, which again, is from my particular experience, but which might apply elsewhere.)

[Teaching Children to Care, I would say, would have fit fairly well in my public elementary school -- perhaps some of the teachers were aware of it, even.]

--

Perhaps adulthood is overrated, and we should honor childhood? I think there are two different paths to honoring childhood. One is the way of my public school, which honored how it could be that 10-year-olds could have their roots in the future, in capability, responsibility and respect and respectworthiness. Childhood can be mature, can be 100% childhood and 100% mature, and calling out the maturity of childhood honors childhood.

Another way to honor childhood is to say that the things in it which are precious, cute, immature, antithetical to capable, responsible adulthood, are to be valued, are in fact worthy of respect, though, when adults practice them, they usually are not fully respectful. We honor children by saying that it is their radical difference from adulthood that is to be honored, not their similarities with adults, the maturity that they can share with (some) adults.

--

One understandable fear that might justify protecting immaturity is to protect children from abusive "taskmasters". It's not good to hate children in their immaturity. Better to respect them for having, in fact, their roots in their future, though their behaviors happen to have something to do with being 5 or 10 years old.

--

Ch. 3

The author says (p. 41) --Since our children are children of God, we should so weave them into the life of the church that they cannot ever recall life without Christ.--

This sounds somewhat dangerous to me. It's like being in water your whole life so you never deeply understand wetness. In fact, this sounds somewhat like my upbringing. I had a shallow faith, that was only redeemed by seriously confronting atheism. That shallow faith (including a shallow love and trust of God) was not sufficient to save me. Imagining a future where other obvious life challenges are done away with through civilizational development, where can we find that deepening work? Maybe by not steeping our children in our faith, so that they can see it in an alien way, for themselves.

Another danger is that "Christ" is a word that often means "Jesus as we understand him". To be raised in Christianity that is so totalizing, it may be that some never seriously question "Jesus as we understand him". But to have had a non-Christian life enables us to see "Jesus as we understand him" and not-"Jesus as we understand him". This helps us to look for "Jesus as he is". We will end up with a new "Jesus as we understand him" which searches for "Jesus as he is". I might believe it if told that the author of this section is in favor of searching for "Jesus as he is", and might try to pursue that or talk about it around younger people. But, a church that is too good at making a comfortable, complete mental environment (intellectually comfortable even if not so in other ways), reduces the likelihood that the church as a whole will spontaneously generate the openness to change that may be necessary if their "Jesus as they understand him" is bad. Or, taking all churches in the church universal, if the church universal is always really good at integrating people into its own environments, if the church needs reform, there may not be enough reformers.

--

The author talks a lot about children being the spiritual teachers of adults. I like this thought, generally.

I think that an adult can easily filter out the immaturity of children and disregard [it] in terms of its instructive value, and instead focus on the ways that children are mature, more so, or differently, than adults. Likewise, adolescents and young adults are similar to children in that respect.

"Maturity as we understand it" is shaped by secular thinking (like by academic psychology, or mental health), and also by the ways that we are damaged and recover as we live. Secular thinking can have some wisdom but is not totally reliable and can invalidate belief in and trust of God. The ways that we are damaged and heal may be like the ways that we lose a limb but now the pain has gone away from healing -- better that we hadn't lost the limb in the first place, and better that it grow back than that we make our "adult" state the standard for "the way things should be".

When we change our minds, we think we have done so toward a better truth, and often that is so. But we can also change our minds due to something like (or literally?) brain damage, and life with its traumas and grinding sameness and ongoingness does something to us that it hasn't yet done to those sufficiently younger than us.

In other words, wisdom is the natural gift of older people, but some wisdom is bad wisdom. Children may accept good wisdom more readily than adults, for lacking the damage acquired by adults.

Along the Way notes

Ch. 4

The author mentions Deuteronomy 6:20-22 which talks about children asking the meaning of the observance of the Mosaic Law. Children ask questions about all kinds of things. So parents (and sometimes others) have to give some kind of answer.

I feel like at this point, I'm reaching the limits of my experience, because I don't spend much time around children, do not have any of my own. So maybe I won't say how it is that parents should explain MSLN to their children, because I don't know and don't trust myself to guess. I guess you can always try to tell your children the truth, without intending that they convert to your religion (in keeping with what I've written already in these notes). But I don't know how to do that.

Along the Way notes

Ch. 5

p. 65 --As J. J. Dillon has put it, children are "deep thinkers and feelers who wrestle with life's mysteries and hunger for meaning and value by which to live their lives." [source for Dillon quote: "The Spiritual Child: Appreciating Children's Transformative Effects on Adults," Encounter 13 (2000): 4]--

Do we find ourselves encountering adults who are "deep feelers and thinkers who wrestle with life's mysteries and hunger for meaning and value by which to live their lives"? Do we take them seriously? The framing of "wrestle with life's mysteries" makes it sound like the profound truths are things that if you try to engage with them, the best you can manage is to "wrestle" with them, and they will always remain "mysteries". In other words, you will naively think there are useful answers to those questions, but in fact there are not, and you will struggle uselessly to understand them. This might prove you to be a "good person" or a "deep person", but also from another perspective, a "stupid person" or a "naive person". We can afford to be patronizing to children (although that may not be the author of this chapter's, or Dillon's, intended meaning), by praising them for thinking and feeling deeply (uselessly), for being noble humans with sensitive spirits, but adults have "reality" to deal with -- tasks to do, things to maintain. Children may be among their things to maintain, and maybe spending time in their deep thinking / feeling, meaning-seeking world is good for our children, so that their hearts can be validated until they are old enough to not need meaning, and instead perform tasks and fit in to a social environment, like a functional adult.

But, as Dillon's article title and quote may together suggest, maybe children can have a transformative effect on adults by showing the adults that deep-thinking-and-feeling, meaning-seeking side. Do we see parents, once presented by that side, feeling something stir in them, their own childhood coming to them to be integrated with their adulthood, and the adults then becoming deep-thinking, deep-feeling meaning-seekers? Or do the adults instead feel a sense of "being humbled" and honor their children, while not fundamentally adopting their children's values? Are their children an image of God that they "worship" rather than "obey", or rather than grasping by sharing the same heart? Maybe the outcome depends on the specific parents in question.

Framing the truth as a "profound mystery" is supposed to humble us, but then it becomes useless since we can't understand it. But what if the truth really makes perfect sense, is just as profound as ever, and therefore motivates us to behave (perhaps radically) differently? Children may be looking for the non-mysterious truth, that's what we call "wrestling with mystery".

--

Overall, I like the sensibility of this chapter / author better than the previous ones, (a note to those who might only want to read part of this book).

The chapter ends (p. 76) with: --Along the way, we adults can also grow, for the best way to learn is to teach, and the best way to be loved is to love.--

--

Ch. 6

The author (same as last chapter) talks about techniques of prayer with children.

It's possible that adult-initiated prayers push prayer into a child's mind (same with other religious experiences), but that this could be a bad thing in the long run. For one, this makes prayer a social thing. Social things have a fleshly compellingness (peer pressure, desire to please authority figures, perhaps other social instincts). Maybe the child doesn't deeply want to pray, and will learn to go through the motions on many levels but not deeply love and trust God for him- or herself.

Also, any experience can become obsessing and burn a person out if it is repeated too often. This was my experience with church services, the inciting event for me quitting going to church. As a child, I felt like, for religious reasons, I needed to fully engage with every prayer and every song that was part of my environment. Eventually, the corrosiveness of those prayers and songs (as experiences, as social obligations) broke my ability to tolerate them. Praying or singing (or the like) in a home might be seen as a magic spell to bring God into a family, but the magic can work far too well, at least for people like me.

(Spells are often cast out of anxiety.)

--

Finished ch. 6.

--

Ch. 7

--

Finished Ch. 7

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Ch. 8

--

This chapter is about how unbiblical theological presuppositions are why Churches of Christ don't let children take communion.

I am not sure about the biblical warrant for excluding children, but I do think it's good to have some exclusive elements to church, which say "you are not there yet, you need to change before you're really a Christian". The author of this chapter seems to want to include everyone into one body -- one body in which we all belong. But does that one body belong to God? No, not exactly. It's not just that "we all sin" or "we all mess up", which are words that will bring you inclusion and belonging in the social structure of the church, so unless you are sufficiently theistically minded, you will think "I'm okay" since what you really track is whether a people group includes you, not whether you love God with all your being. The sense of "I'm not there yet", should sober you and drive you, because there is real danger to remaining where you are in your moral development and your relationship to God.

The author describes a historical, modern, and near-future vision of Church of Christ communion. The historical and modern are affected by individualist and Anselmian (penal substitutionary) ideas. But the near future one makes communion about entering the Messianic era.

I am not convinced from this chapter that Anselm was totally wrong. My naive sense, from reading a book on the atonement, is that there are multiple theories of the atonement, which all make some sense, but aren't conclusively "the" answer. Maybe from an Anselmian point of view, we should exclude (children? the unbaptized? the unconfirmed? those who are not disciples of Jesus?) from communion.

Church wants to include everyone, but the disciples of Jesus are few. I remember when I was just entering college, I was appraised by two different older people, one of whom was an individualist Christian, who casually called me someone "raised in the church", rather than Christian, the other a church-attending Christian who, after hearing what I said, said that I wasn't a Christian. But I had gone to church and identified myself with Christianity... I called myself a Christian -- wasn't I a Christian? What is this label "Christian" and why should we want it so much? Being a disciple of Jesus is somewhat better defined -- do you obey Jesus' commands in the Gospels? Do you seriously aspire to? But "Christian" is something that has been and is defined by the church, and it's unclear whether it's really about inclusion in the social body of the church or if it means that you are saved in the eyes of God, or something else.

It's the church's job (so it seems) to include everyone, but Jesus says that some follow him, and some don't. Do we prevent people from really following Jesus by turning them into "Christians"?

A challenge for MSLN Christianity would be to say "church and disciples are one", at least in that "in our general assembly, our maximally socially inclusive space, we preach a gospel of you are not there yet and there is real spiritual danger to that, and graciously, there is a way for you to get there, obey Jesus". In that way, the identity of "I really belong to the 'body of Christ' (the church universal, which we perhaps unjustifiably indentify with corporate churches and the particular corporate church we attend)" does not smother or prevent the possibility of motions of sober drivenness toward complete holiness.

The "Messianic kingdom" means something to the author -- I suppose not an Anselmian or individualist thing. I think for him it has something to do with being the people who do God's work in the world. (The people who call people to repent so that Jesus' blood of atonement can cover them? Seemingly not. The people who call people to repent to the point of having the heart of God -- i.e. completely turning against sin and being willing to go to the literal cross, putting God ahead of even their own lives? That might sound better to him, but I'm not sure in practice that's what he has in mind. It's possible he really means "feed people physical food" or "help people with the same psychological problems a secular therapist would" and things in that category.)

In any case, the Messianic kingdom sounds good to me, for some meaning of "Messianic kingdom", and I can agree that probably that is part of the meaning of the Lord's Supper.

The author ends the chapter like this (p. 124): --The theological trajectories we inherited for the Lord's Supper are being challenged and transformed. So, what would happen if the table we gather around on Sunday morning lost its boundary markers and altar theology, and instead, became an enactment of the Messianic era? What would happen if we welcomed our children to a table that empowered them to shape their lives by the story of Jesus? What would happen if our children saw a table without boundaries? Would it then not lead our children to be bearers of the Messianic kingdom? Would our children not be living out the story of Jesus?--

I am not too optimistic about the power of official rituals to shape deep commitment, at least, not without the children, themselves, apart form anyone else ("individualistically", perhaps), taking on the identity of disciple of Jesus, relating to God by themselves, for themselves. This is part of the story of Jesus, who was an individual.

Official things are things which a social group institutes by its own authority whether its members agree to it in every moment or not. Perhaps sometimes it is the case that all members agree to one official institution at one point in time, by taking a vote. But after that, there is no essential guarantee that an official statement made by a group is really affirmed by everyone in it. So the official thing provides a face for everyone without them necessarily really being the rest of the person behind the face. Official things help create a sense of "we are a social body", which can have some benefits. But they are also dangerous because they enable people to wear a face that is not theirs, and to see the face that is not theirs when they look in a mirror.

(Looking back, I agree with the two people who thought I wasn't necessarily a Christian when I was a freshman in college.)

Why did Jesus institute the Lord's Supper? I haven't done a thorough study of this. But clearly at least he did institute a ritual. How often did he intend us to take the Lord's Supper? Some churches practice it once a week, but others only once a year. Some takings of the Lord's Supper can be meaningful, in the sense of being communicative of something deep. I think I have experienced that twice in my life. Those two, or at least one of them, was sacramental -- not because a priest (or magisterium) said so, or because it was some kind of dry objective fact in which I had faith, but because of my own relationship with God in the spiritual world at that particular time in my life, I knew that that particular experience was a kind of communicative vision. I do not assume that my weekly takings of communion back when I went to church had any special power or significance, any more than if I said Christian words without really meaning them. Maybe we should only take communion a few times in our lives, or only when moved to personally. Then, it should not be offered regularly, but should be sought out.

I could see a small group of people spontaneously (and non-coercively) seeking out the Lord's Supper, such that all of them really did want to do it. But the larger the group, the more official that institution becomes, and the more likely a significant portion of people are just along for the ride. "Power is a broken relationship" if some people can affect many people without the many (or individuals in the many) being able to affect them back. "Coercion", "force", and this kind of "power" are all the same, or are significantly similar. If you do things in a large group, you tend to have a few people, or a majority, making decisions for every individual. If you don't feel moved to take communion at the time and setting, and in the manner, decided by some impenetrable "leadership" or "church majority", you can take it or leave it. Maybe the most expedient thing to do is to turn part of yourself off and make a meaningless action at the expected time.

Humility says that you change yourself to fit other people (maybe... but why don't other people humbly change themselves to allow you to not have to fit them when that's not necessary?) If humility says that you change yourself to fit other people, then you could easily go from being real and a misfit, to being fake but outwardly compliant. (Perhaps there is a humility to undergoing the rigors and isolation that come from obeying God, who sometimes is the one who tells you who you are in opposition to your social setting.)

--

Ch. 9

This chapter is about baptism, with a connection to how to approach children's baptism. It's the first of two chapters on the subject.

So far, I agree with the author about some things, perhaps many. For instance, the old view of baptism in the Churches of Christ was much like other conservative Protestants -- in that, there was a view that there is a life of sin, some decisive conversion with some kind of act, and then a state of being saved. So baptism happened to be the completion of the decisive conversion in the Churches of Christ, unlike saying the "sinner's prayer" or something like that in other groups. This old view is sort of what I was raised under, and it didn't exactly make sense. I certainly lacked an important element of salvation when I was growing up, but I also possessed an important element of it. I couldn't easily repent of my whole-souled alienation from God, but that meant I couldn't easily "repent to" a whole-souled identification with God. I now understand that my lack of a whole-souled identification with God is enough to keep me out of heaven (and threatens to keep, I assume, the author of this chapter out of heaven, along with any other church person -- in that sense, nobody is saved). I think I agree with some of this chapter's author's emphases on holiness, but I am not sure he understands that holiness is life-or-death.

I think there are two kinds of people: those who effectively enough see that it is possible (or probable, or certain) that there is something life or death about life and that we don't necessarily know what it is or are in right relationship with that truth, but must come to know (or have come to know) it, or the way to it; and those who do not effectively enough see that. I got the feeling after reading this chapter that the author is not a "life-or-death" type person. Conservative Protestants, perhaps, or conservative Americans, tend to be that more so. The secular people who are responsible for life and death issues tend to be more so. I think that if I were a conservative Protestant, or a serious-minded secular person, I would not trust the author of this chapter, because he seems to not understand or even be cleverly avoiding the issue of life or death.

I do agree with the author that my naive reading of the New Testament (or maybe the Bible as a whole) does not leave me with the sense that sins or atonement for sins are "the" issue. I have learned (to my chagrin, I guess) that my own writing can have an emphasis that obscures the facts that it presents. (I wrote a book that presents Christian words, but I fear that its emphasis is really on left-leaning, existentialist-leaning, humanism -- not sufficiently theistic humanism, thus effectively secular humanism -- which was not my intention.)

Even if the emphasis of the scriptures is on something other than life or death, for someone concerned with life or death, do its words say "don't worry about life-or-death"? Are the facts of the worldview presented in scripture such that we can forget about that, just because it has some language that doesn't sound directly oriented toward life-or-death, to the level of bluntness and simplicity (/ oversimplification) of revivalism? It may be unfortunate that Scripture is written in such a way that it can be misinterpreted, but the wise will not forget the truth when they read it. The quiet words, if taken as seriously as they deserve to be taken, can really deserve to dominate our understanding of the plentiful, loud words.

(I don't know where that principle of interpretation would take someone if applied rigorously, but it makes sense to me.)

I believe that children who are not baptized do not go to hell for that, but instead are resurrected to the Millennium along with most other people, where they can get baptized if it's necessary for salvation. I don't think we can rule out that it is necessary for salvation, as it's (probably?) part of obedience to God, and total obedience to God is necessary for salvation. It is dangerous to bias children against baptism or that they think that it couldn't possibly have anything to do with salvation, because that could make them resist obeying God -- those are some important things for us to think about in this life. It is a good thing for children to be baptized whenever it is really their idea and they basically understand what it means (at least I don't see an obvious problem with that and I do see a strong prima facie motivation for it).

--

Ch. 10

--

Finished Ch. 10

--

I thought I should re-read chapter nine to explain some of what I said about it.

--

p. 126 - 127 --Growing out of a heritage of revivalist preaching, the meaning and significance of baptism might seem plain and obvious: sinners are baptized to express their obedience to Christ, to have their sins washed away, and to become members of the Lord's church. This is good, as far as it goes. Yet when we turn to the New Testament, we discover that Jesus and the early Christian writers go much further.--

The question I would have to begin with is: what is most important? Could it be anything other than keeping people out of hell, so that they can be with God forever? If you do something like Pascal's wager, you see that mathematically, eternal life dominates everything else. You might also think of it like: do people matter? If people really matter, shouldn't they exist? The thing that makes them not exist (from an annihilationist standpoint, which I think is probably the Biblical one and the only one which makes sense philosophically) is hell. So if you love people, if you really value them, you must keep them out of hell. If they go to hell, they are lost, and no longer exist. It doesn't matter how nice their lives were, or how good their religious walk was, unless those things contribute to keeping them out of hell, so that they can continue to exist, with God.

If this emphasis on people and them existing matters, then if we lose sight of it, we have been deceived.

Now, I can see how obeying Christ and having a person's sins washed away could connect to people living, existing, with God, and not dying / being destroyed. Being a member of the church might have some connection.

The author of ch. 9 wants to add things to these, to flesh out baptism. Do any of these take away our responsibility to be concerned for the salvation of people (including children), from the second death; at all, or especially with respect to the roles of baptism in helping people be saved?

The author lists the following other interpretations of baptism: p. 127 --an ordeal of sacrifice and self-denial-- --a sacred womb, a place of spiritual rebirth, where a person goes in order to see what the kingdom looks like-- --like crossing the Red Sea, a watershed event of liberation that helps define the identity of the people and their covenant relationship with God-- --[a place to] leave behind the evil powers that had enslaved them to drown under the waves-- --the baptistery as a tomb: taken under the water to join Jesus in death, the baptized person is raised up to live differently-- --baptism is the water floating Noah's boat, saving humankind-- --an adoption ritual, a special venue of operation for the Holy Spirit, washing and renewing a person by God's grace so that they may become heirs of the Father, full of hope and the good deeds flowing out of it. --the baptistery is a place to meet the community of faith and become part of Jesus' body, as one of its many members; it is a key to congregational unity and instrumental in helping disciples find their places in the body-- --the baptistery is a place to change clothes, putting on Jesus, and it dismantles false distinctions between people by putting everyone on the same footing before God-- --Baptism connects a person with the Father, Son, and Spirit, opening a door into the very life of God--

He ends that list with --And yes -- baptism cleans us, bringing forgiveness of sins--

The effect that his rhetoric has on me is to make me think "Oh, forgiveness of sins is this little thing over to the side, but look how rich and deep is this baptism concept! Look at how beautiful, spiritual, and poetic it really is!" Because, for better or worse, the Bible is often beautiful, spiritual, and poetic. But... still... what about people ending up in hell? Isn't that last part (about bringing forgiveness of sins) completely dominant over everything else, unless they also contribute to keeping people out of hell? And, if they also contribute to salvation, isn't it unlikely that they remove the importance of forgiveness, by adding more things that are also of life and death importance?

I wonder if the author of this chapter has some doctrinal understanding somewhere that causes him to think that a) there is some other source of forgiveness of sins, or b) that forgiveness of sins doesn't matter. Maybe I missed it, reading the chapter the first time.

p. 127 - 128 --How many different ways can we talk about the importance of baptism and its meaning? The Bible shows how important baptism was to Jesus, the apostles, and the early church. Underemphasizing baptism is an answer to many different questions. Yet the questions are not so much about qualifying for church membership or certifying eternal destiny. Most of the time, they are not even about how to "get saved." Instead, they are more about identity, the direction of a person's life, their place within the community, handling relationships, and cooperating with the activity of the Father, Son, and Spirit in experiencing daily transformation of character and behavior.--

The author's rhetoric starts out by reassuring me that baptism is important (at least, that's its effect on me). Baptism is so important, its meaning is so rich, that it's mostly not about "getting saved". He doesn't deny that it's about getting saved. But "getting saved" (is this identical with people not being destroyed in hell?) is not that big a deal to him? Perhaps this is only his emphasis, or the effect of his words on me. Does he deny that baptism can be about "certifying eternal destiny" when he says that baptism is "not so much" about that? I wouldn't assume that baptism is the sole determining factor of salvation, but surely if it washes away sins, it might be a necessary part of it?

Does the author think that baptism is a life-or-death thing that must be accomplished before someone can go to heaven, or not?

Does life-or-deathness matter? Does baptism perform a necessary role in salvation (in some sense removing or forgiving sin)? If baptism is a life-or-death thing, and life-or-deathness matters, then it makes a lot of sense to have a revivalist view of baptism. It makes sense to be anxious about whether your children have entered the age of accountability and now if they die for some unforeseen reason, they might be going to hell. It makes sense to communicate to your children that they are not full members of the church, because in fact they are not saved and should not completely feel like they are. Their faith in God may be pure and innocent, but God is completely holy and every child has sinned. Maybe that makes God weird and inhumane in our eyes, but perhaps that seems so to us because we are not holy ourselves and lack the intuitive sense that sin is unacceptable. Much of what the author pushes back against comes out of simply being concerned about the loss of people and thinking that baptism has some essential role to play in them not being lost, through dealing with their sin problem.

p. 129 --In short, less preoccupation with the "essentiality of baptism" and greater study of its essence would be a welcome change, going a long way towards equipping us to address those practical matters from a solid foundation.--

The author goes on to a section entitled "The Essence of Baptism".

He says that baptism is about Jesus. With regard to the famous Acts 2:38 passage, he says that baptism of cleansing for sin was a normal Jewish thing, but what was really new was the promise of "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and that all this was centered "in the name of Jesus". Somehow, as a reader, I feel like just proved that forgiveness of sins doesn't matter, because of that. Does this make sense logically? Maybe if we say "Jewish things are false, irrelevant, something like that, but new, specifically Christian things are true, relevant, valid, etc." Is that what the author wants to claim? It might be fitting in a Church of Christ context to reject Jewish understandings in favor of post-Jewish ones. Are there ever cases when Jewish religious understandings are correct, and might this be one of them? Is there any chance that when Peter said that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins [or he might have said that when he said "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" and we can't rule that out], he might have been saying what was true and impressed on him by Jesus or the Spirit to say? I wouldn't take any chances with salvation. I would go ahead and assume baptism has something essential to do with washing away sins. If not, fine. [If it turns out it doesn't, that's fine.]

I remember growing up, I was aware of Baptist responses to Church of Christ doctrines on baptism. One of them was "if baptism is necessary for salvation, then why isn't it sufficiently emphasized such that no one could possibly be uncertain about whether it is necessary?" My response to that nowadays is, why should we assume that God is interested in making things that easy for us? Maybe he's looking for people who really love him and are searching for ways to follow him, taking responsibility to look through reality to find ways to follow him, instead of having him feed us the plan of salvation, requiring less initiative on our part, or perhaps none at all. But, that has the cruel implication that many of us will never be saved, because no one taught us to look at reality. (But I will address why I am not worried about that cruel implication later.)

I assume that many people are tired of Baptist-Church of Christ debates -- if they are not still a thing to the intended audience of this book, then the older readers and writer of the book might remember those old days without fondness. But, is the issue here really that "yeah, basically the Baptists are right" or people end up making a doctrinal move that happens to align them with the Baptists all along. This may be appropriate, if the Baptists are right, but it seems like the kind of thing that should talked about openly.

p. 130 --By his own admission, Jesus was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness". It was the right thing for him to do. That may surprise some of us who have traditionally approached baptism strictly as a legal maneuver by which we deal with our sins, or as the culmination of a conversion process, since those are two things that Jesus' baptism could not mean. He needed neither conversion nor forgiveness.--

Maybe baptism is about (at least) two things: obedience, and washing away sins. Jesus, being clean, was washed, but no sins were removed. Jesus was obeying God, and if he never got baptized, he would have sinned. So Jesus was fulfilling righteousness by obeying God, and we have the same need to obey. In contrast to Jesus, we have sins that need (in some sense) to be washed away by baptism.

p. 133 --Salvation is a journey and a process. There may be a sense in which the Lord's salvation is a thing we can possess, or a state that we enter at a certain crucial point in our walk, but there is also a deep sense in which "we are being saved," (1 Cor. 1:18). In other words, we are caught up in an ongoing process of salvation, as part of a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17)".--

I agree with the author of this chapter that salvation is a journey. I think growing up in the church is much more of a gradual journey experience than an intense and clear decision. But I think that for a conservative Church of Christ person, their concern might be something like this (I knew some conservative Church of Christ members when I was in college, and I hope I am remembering their point of view accurately): "Yes, salvation is a journey. We want to get as far from falling away from God and losing our salvation as possible. That's a journey. Yes, we grow to love God more deeply. Also a journey. But superimposed on that 'journey' metaphor is the concept of 'are your sins washed away?' and we want to know, have our sins been forgiven? Have our children's sins been forgiven? If they have reached the age of accountability and not been baptized, and die, do they go to hell?" Saying that salvation is a journey doesn't exactly deal with that issue.

He goes on to talk about how salvation is about becoming like Jesus. I feel like a basic holiness message would not have been too strange to the conservative Church of Christ people I knew. Still the question remains, in terms of dealing with past sins, how do we know that those are dealt with? Do we need to be baptized for them to be washed away?

p. 136 --We [authorial "we"] recognize that all people are (or become) sinners and need forgiveness. That includes children raised in the church.--

I guess it's possible that some kids haven't sinned yet, but how would their parents know that? How would the kids know that? The author acknowledges the possibility of needing forgiveness. So if people need forgiveness, oughtn't there be some urgency to getting them baptized, if that is necessary for forgiveness?

Immediately following: --Nor do we want to downplay the importance of powerful spiritual experiences in the lives of young people. But to treat those preparing for baptism as if the only way to get ready is by owning up to their sinfulness or by having an intense experience of some kind, is to ignore the fact that different people come to baptism in different ways.. This was true in the first century as it is today. The Gentile idol-worshipper who was accustomed to the immoral life of his pagan culture experienced baptism in a very different way than the law-abiding Jewess who had been preparing for the Messiah's coming all her life. Their journeys into the baptistery to join Jesus were similar in some ways, but very different in others.--

I guess the implication is that church kids are like the "law-abiding Jewess", while adult converts are like the "Gentile idol-worshipper"? Was the law-abiding Jewess sinless? No, probably not. Then probably the church kids aren't sinless either. Needing forgiveness isn't about having done really bad things or turning away from God. It's just about at all having intended something against God or consciously-enough failed to intend something that would go with loving God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Anything less than 100% is sin, and sin leads to death. Being a merely good person doesn't save you. So they "Jewess", "Gentile", church kid, and adult convert are all basically in the same situation of needing forgiveness, perhaps urgently. It's like if you have four people whose livers are failing, one because of a car accident that damaged the liver, one because of a congenital defect, one because of years of drinking, and one from hepatitis C from years of injection drugs -- that's a complicated set of issues some of which may involve it being somewhat due to the sin of the people involved, but we really can't judge. It's complicated, and all their life stories are nuanced and particular. But, is it, or is it not, the case that they need a liver transplant to keep them from dying soon? In that sense, they are all the same and should be told basically the same thing.

I think maybe the issue with baptism is that it is both about conversion and about washing away sins (if you believe that's what it does), and it is less necessary for conversion than for washing away sins. [I don't understand what motivated this paragraph now. It might make more sense if you have just read the relevant part of Along the Way.]

p. 140 --Furthermore, although we would not presume to speak for God, Scripture does not support an attitude of fear and anxiety regarding the status of unbaptized children in the church, as if the ceremony of baptism were necessary to convey magical protection of our loved ones.--

This is sort of true and sort of not. The background worldview of the New Testament is that people can be lost to hell, there is a way to heaven through Jesus, and Jesus commands and institutes different things which contribute to salvation. I can't think of any time the NT church says much one way or another about child salvation or anxiety about that. I'm not sure exactly what the emphasis of the NT is, but it doesn't have a clear "letter of Paul where he lays out revivalism verse after verse". So maybe from a literary perspective, it "feels" like it's really about some kind of narrative other than life-or-death, are you saved?

(I think it's perfectly fine for God to institute a ceremony which conveys magical protection of our loved ones, and fully in keeping with reality. (Putting a seatbelt on -- is that a magical ceremony?))

--

Now, I do agree with the author that revivalism has its flaws. For instance, what happens if you slip on the way to the baptistery? Baptists have it a little easier, because if you intend to follow God, then there's no tragedy if you die soon after, since you're going to heaven. But then, what about the "age of accountability" that seems necessary for those who practice believer's baptism, or, I would think, equally well for those who say that children are in need of salvation at some age, even if all they have to do is something like pray the "sinner's prayer"? Exactly when does that age of accountability kick in? Can anyone know when their little ones are safely innocent, or when they have just slipped over into needing salvation or else they go to hell when they die?

There are some more problems that are faced when we consider the process of evangelism, given the thought that people need to follow Jesus to be saved. For instance, what if the youth minister at your church decided not to take you to the annual regional youth rally? But that was the year that that one speaker was going to be there, who uniquely spoke to your sinfulness, who could have brought you to a state of repentance and conversion? Or what if you are a member of an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon (and there are still some, by the way)? Or you lived in the New World before Columbus came?

I don't think that there is no such thing as tragedy, that God stamps it all out. But I do think that he would not design a system of life that would cause there to be unforced errors on his part in bringing people to salvation. Having a world where people need to hear about Jesus to be saved (so that they can respond appropriately), but that world is significantly bad at giving them a chance, and then they go to hell when they die, does not sound like something God would do, because God is a self-interested being, and his personal desire is for us to live. Self-interested beings do rational things.

It's always possible that God is doing something mysterious or strange that he understands and that we never will, but it's also possible that we just don't understand the not-too-mysterious truth. I tend to think that if possible, I should understand God, because then I will understand his point of view better, and can love him better that way. If I reach the limit of my understanding, maybe then there is an insoluble mystery that I have to live with. But, is that the case here?

I am not an expert on the Bible, and knowing the Bible is the kind of intellectual work that I am not good at, because I don't retain and manage bodies of facts very well. But, I did read someone else's take on the Bible that is very well-researched (although I can't say that I know for certain that it is absolutely correct, because I don't have the "chops" to seriously verify it). My strength is more in philosophy, and I see how it works there, and that mostly contents me to say that it's true.

The basic idea is that we don't go to heaven or hell when we die, instead, we rest in the grave, then we are resurrected after Jesus returns, live on earth a thousand years (the Millennium / Resurrection) and then when that's up, we either go to heaven or hell. During those thousand years, we hear about Jesus, and learn. (Some of us also weep and gnash our teeth, and experience the penalties of having been wealthy, fake Christians, or whatever -- which are not the same as hell, and which don't necessarily keep us out of heaven.) We can't enter heaven unless we are no longer sinners, and the process of overcoming sin is not trivial, but if we don't procrastinate, we can make it, it just could be hard and take a long time. It's possible for us to harden ourselves (similar idea to "falling away") and thus be incapable of growing to the point of 100% repentance and being in tune with God, loving him with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strength.

So from this point of view, I would say that we should move with a certain kind of urgency toward obeying God whenever we get the chance, to ward off the tendency to get into procrastination. So it makes sense for the child to want to be baptized once they make the decision, and not wait around very long.

Obviously a child can't repent except under their own will, so you can't really do anything to make your child come into tune with God in their hearts, except provide an environment in which they are provided the good ideas and good examples to choose to follow. You can apply your will to get them to behave or feel or even think they believe something, and maybe they will also really believe that thing to some extent, but maybe they don't and it was just the strength of your will on them. Sometimes that's okay (like keeping them from urgent physical harm), but when it comes to choosing God, to turn away from sin, and toward him, that's 100% their decision and you can't do any persuading of them any which way. But again, providing them with good choices is helpful.

What about baptism? Should you apply your will to get your kid to be baptized? Baptism is a discrete event -- so if your will overshadows theirs, is that not really a baptism? Maybe not. So maybe then that's a reason for them to validly need to be re-baptized, because in some important sense, they didn't mean it themselves the first time.

If your child dies, that is painful but doesn't have to be tragic, because they aren't going to hell (except in some exceedingly unlikely event that they have hardened themselves so young), and unless you harden yourself, which you are unlikely to do in this life, you will be resurrected to the next life and you can see them again (unless there's some unusual reason that you wouldn't).

Does it matter if they are baptized to wash away their sins? I'm not 100% sure about baptism, but I see that it certainly could be necessary, and that's good enough for me. I'd do it, if I hadn't already. If it is necessary to wash away sins, just like how hearing about Jesus is necessary for salvation, everyone gets a chance to fill in that gap in the Millennium.

--

Re-read ch. 10 (the follow up to ch. 9).

--

Read ch. 11

--

Started ch. 12.

So far I like the taste of this chapter and author as much as or more than the other one I liked (ch. 5 and 6) and would also recommend it to be read. [On finishing the chapter, I still think so.]

--

p. 180 --I recently heard the phrase "What we win them with is what we win them to."--

This in reference to how when we make children's ministry into a fun thing (like with talking vegetable videos or making children's church happen inside a spaceship), we might be making them into consumers of church, and then years later they won't be able to be workers in the church.

I wonder to what extent it's worth teaching children at all? Maybe it's best to leave them to play all throughout their childhoods, and just pick up Bible teaching that trickles down to them, that they overhear from people reading the Bible out loud, or that their peers talk about. Probably this does not sound like a good idea from the perspective of this book overall, and likely not from the author of this chapter. But if you take "don't be consumerist" and take it far enough, do you end up with the cold and dark side of the truth that even adult church shies away from? (The numerous ways Satan deceives and attacks us, our weird and frightening God who must be respected, and/or our weird and frightening world where God struggles to do good, or the danger that we are all in from sin, how none of us entirely has our salvation secure, as some examples.) These topics can only be really talked about in a serious spirit, or they sound unbelievable. But can we teach children with such a serious spirit? Perhaps we can avoid talking about those examples given, if they are "too much" for children, and certainly adults can sort of give lip service (or "mind service") to dark realities that they become intellectually aware of when they are older. But I don't know that people can become serious enough to really get those realities such that they can be very effective given them if the climate of their minds filters them out. And that climate is established when children are young.

I suppose I was raised in that climate, and have managed to get out of it. The way I did so was through doggedness, turning back to the text even when it didn't make sense culturally and thus experientially to me (I had the filters), and then lots of intense personal experience which opened up the world of spiritual darkness to me (the darkness that is present very commonly in people's lives at various times, but which is somehow usually unseeable). I don't expect other people to have the same background as me. So, should we teach children about God, if that roots them in "child-appropriate" views of the world? Perhaps we could teach them, but not in a fun, engaging, way, or even as "normal people", going against what feels to us like "child-appropriate" teaching.

Maybe the way to look at this teaching is like what someone earlier in the book said: is this "first-approximation" teaching something that can be revised successfully when children are older? So, is the "vibe" of a teacher (or of all the adults in the church), such that children connect with seriousness, sufficient to face spiritual darkness and death when they get older?

The irony is that children's lived experiences are often closer to that of "I live in a weird, scary world of spirits and inexplicable rules of life" than many adults are. Maybe adults are frightened of children's fears, and keep them from fearing? I think we sometimes try to protect children from dark realities when they are young. But darkness is already a part of their lives, so how can they deal with it? What may be the case is that they are not ready cognitively to fully understand darkness. But darkness is a part of their lives and they have to deal with it somehow. We also try to keep adult realities out of kids' minds. Maybe this has some use, but kids are already living in the adult world and have to deal with it. And they have to grow up to become adults someday. Maybe it would be better if they started preparing for that when they were young.

A children's teacher could be transparent, and simply be open about their own experiences (with some discretion, for protecting legitimate privacy concerns, and for what the children can handle).

--

Finished ch. 12.

--

ch. 13

p. 195 (quoting Stewart and Berryman, Young Children and Worship, pp. 13 - 14): --The experience of God is one of mystery, awe and wonder.--

This sentiment is one that I feel like I read more than once from various authors in this book.

For me, the experience of God is either one of business-like guidance and support, or if more "heightened" or "special", of closeness, perhaps empathy and sorrow (me empathizing with him), and kinship. To some extent this follows from MSLN.

--

Finished ch. 13

--

Ch. 14

This book is about involving children in "the mission of the church".

p. 208 --Children are often moved to action when they encounter pain. They are kingdom bearers and as such must participate in God's redemptive work by sharing hope, showing compassion, and proclaiming the gospel.--

(After a description of taking kids to do disaster relief at a site of a severe tornado.)

Not so much as a comment on this chapter, here's a thought of how I might talk to children who are moved by the pain of the world.

People are different. In any given day, or year, there are things that a given person is good at. Some people are good at one thing, some good at another. Some people love to do certain things and thus do them a lot, and usually get better at them. Some people are good at doing things, but don't like doing them, or to work on them wears them out. If you can work at something you're good at for many years, that's a good personal fit.

Children are not as good as adults at doing some things, because they don't have as much practice. Adults, though, aren't as good as children at learning new things. So when you are a child, you have an advantage over adults in being able to learn. You can learn all kinds of things -- all about cartoons, movies, music, toys, games, etc., but also about how to care about people and how to work. It is okay to learn about cartoons, movies, music, etc., but if you want to learn more about caring about people and how to work, that helps you to help people someday.

Maybe you can try to have a higher paying job someday, and donate the extra money you make to good charities. Or, you can try to prepare for a job that directly helps people. People have physical needs (food, water, shelter, healthcare), psychological needs (the ability to trust, the ability to protect their mind from bad thoughts), social needs (the ability to relate well to other people), and spiritual needs (the ability to love and trust God). You can seek to learn more that will help you be competent and experienced in any of these areas. Then, you will be more prepared when you are older to go down life paths that help a lot of people (and also don't harm too many people as a side effect).

(I could come up with a long list of professions that fit into meeting the needs listed in the previous paragraph.)

You may someday choose a career for yourself that focuses on meeting those needs. You could choose one major in college over another based on thinking about that. Or if you don't go to college, you could pick one trade or line of business to invest your time and/or money in, or another. But, if you find yourself unable to control the way your life goes as much as you want, you can always work with whatever part of your life is under your control, and try to use that as effectively as you can. Maybe you can just focus on becoming a good friend or family member, because there is also a need for that.

(A long list of non-career ways to help.)

As a child, you may get the opportunity to work in the field that you feel called to, or to practice doing good in some other way. That's good training, and does some good. But if not, you can at least read books, watch videos, etc. that help you prepare, and try to think deeply about what it would be like to do good.

--

p. 213 --Children often think outside the box of limited resources and time and encourage the church to engage in opportunities for service that may have been overlooked.--

This is part of the comparative advantage of children.

(Also mentioned on pp. 213 - 214 are children's abilities to do simple things (perform gestures or acts of care with simplicity), and by being children who communicate as an act of care, (my thought:) bearing the loadedness of "child", which means something to the recipient of care, a bit of connection with family, innocence, simple caring, etc.)

--

Finished ch. 14

--

Ch. 15

p. 229 --I believe that if we listen to children long enough and carefully enough, they too will tell us what they need. This kind of listening requires relationship. As we seek to welcome children, we cannot simply implement the right programs or find the perfect techniques. We must know children, and they must know us. Hospitality is a relational act, not a strategy. When we build trusting and respectful relationships with children, we may be surprised how insightful they can be about their own needs.--

(After a discussion of the author's father, who as a physician had a similar approach to diagnosing patients.)

I wonder if this works even more generally, that a kind of attention (a listening to and waiting on) reveals the deeper needs, at least in cultural / psychological / social / political type worlds. And similarly the requirement that we be in a relationship with the world we want to diagnose.

--

Finished Ch. 15 / the book overall.